Author Topic: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing  (Read 5644 times)

Offline dcb

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2014, 06:27:36 AM »
Can you define your entire process for us S?  Ill try it, the only reason i was rinsing is because it was the most used method i could find instructions for.

+1.  I'm curious too.  I feel like I'm always on here asking naive, bone headed questions, but sometimes details that are obvious to you aren't at all obvious to a relatively new brewer who has been teaching himself from books and the internet.

One particular piece of this puzzle that drives me bat sh*t crazy is the question of what you guys do with all the break and fine dust from pellet hops when it comes to transferring from the kettle to the fermenter, and again when cropping yeast.  I'm starting to conclude that I'm being too dramatic trying to get clear wort out of the kettle.   I use hop bags to help me keep most of the pellet hop sludge out of the beer, but after the boil I still have quite a bit of break and fine hop dust left.  I've wasted quite a bit of beer trying to leave this stuff behind.

Then I read that guys like KlickitatJim put all their hops in commando, and it sounds to me like anything the whirlpool doesn't drop out goes unceremoniously into the kettle guts, feathers, and all.   Same for cropping yeast-- just swirl up all the crap in the bottom of the bucket and don't sweat what's in there.    Do I really have that right?





Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2014, 07:40:14 AM »
Can you define your entire process for us S?  Ill try it, the only reason i was rinsing is because it was the most used method i could find instructions for.

+1.  I'm curious too.  I feel like I'm always on here asking naive, bone headed questions, but sometimes details that are obvious to you aren't at all obvious to a relatively new brewer who has been teaching himself from books and the internet.

One particular piece of this puzzle that drives me bat sh*t crazy is the question of what you guys do with all the break and fine dust from pellet hops when it comes to transferring from the kettle to the fermenter, and again when cropping yeast.  I'm starting to conclude that I'm being too dramatic trying to get clear wort out of the kettle.   I use hop bags to help me keep most of the pellet hop sludge out of the beer, but after the boil I still have quite a bit of break and fine hop dust left.  I've wasted quite a bit of beer trying to leave this stuff behind.

Then I read that guys like KlickitatJim put all their hops in commando, and it sounds to me like anything the whirlpool doesn't drop out goes unceremoniously into the kettle guts, feathers, and all.   Same for cropping yeast-- just swirl up all the crap in the bottom of the bucket and don't sweat what's in there.    Do I really have that right?

you got it. barley wants to be beer. we just have to help it along a bit.
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Offline denny

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2014, 07:44:47 AM »
I just leave a bit of beer behind in the fermenter, swirl up the yeast, trub, and beer and pour it all into a sanitized container.

This technique is used by every truly experienced brewer that I know.

I think that at least for me it's a combination of laziness and effectiveness.  It's the easiest thing to do and it works as well as anything else I've tried.
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Offline denny

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2014, 07:48:14 AM »

+1.  The two piece lid definitely needs to be on loose.

Which is why I store cropped yeast in 500ml Erlenmeyer flasks with #7 stoppers and airlocks.  A six-pack of Corning 4980 500ml Erlenmeyer flasks can be had for $25.25 shipped.  That's $4.21 per flask.  My oldest Corning 4980-500 is over twenty years old.

www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004XR5V0A/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Denny too, would you say using flasks or mason jars are better? Also how would you recommend sanitizing them?


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IMO, neither.  My LHBS sells bulk extract in 1/2 gal. plastic tubs with snap on lids.  I buy a few of them and use them for yeast storage.    They're unbreakable and the lids will just pop up a bit if too much pressure builds.  I've been using them for 10+ years with no problems at all.  I sanitize with StarSan.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2014, 07:50:28 AM »
One particular piece of this puzzle that drives me bat sh*t crazy is the question of what you guys do with all the break and fine dust from pellet hops when it comes to transferring from the kettle to the fermenter, and again when cropping yeast.  I'm starting to conclude that I'm being too dramatic trying to get clear wort out of the kettle.   I use hop bags to help me keep most of the pellet hop sludge out of the beer, but after the boil I still have quite a bit of break and fine hop dust left.  I've wasted quite a bit of beer trying to leave this stuff behind.

Then I read that guys like KlickitatJim put all their hops in commando, and it sounds to me like anything the whirlpool doesn't drop out goes unceremoniously into the kettle guts, feathers, and all.   Same for cropping yeast-- just swirl up all the crap in the bottom of the bucket and don't sweat what's in there.    Do I really have that right?

Yep, that's exactly what I do.  When I use whole hops, I use a bag so they don't go into the fermenter, but all the other trub does.  When I use pellets they go in lose, go through the pump and into the fermenter.  when I reuse the yeast they're still on there.  It just doesn't matter.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline bluesman

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2014, 09:37:11 AM »
I just leave a bit of beer behind in the fermenter, swirl up the yeast, trub, and beer and pour it all into a sanitized container.

This technique is used by every truly experienced brewer that I know.

I think that at least for me it's a combination of laziness and effectiveness.  It's the easiest thing to do and it works as well as anything else I've tried.

If it's simpler and produces good results...then it's a viable process in my book. I've made dozens of beers using this technique with very good results.
Ron Price

Offline alestateyall

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2014, 10:08:33 AM »


+1.  The two piece lid definitely needs to be on loose.

Which is why I store cropped yeast in 500ml Erlenmeyer flasks with #7 stoppers and airlocks.  A six-pack of Corning 4980 500ml Erlenmeyer flasks can be had for $25.25 shipped.  That's $4.21 per flask.  My oldest Corning 4980-500 is over twenty years old.

www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004XR5V0A/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Denny too, would you say using flasks or mason jars are better? Also how would you recommend sanitizing them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO, neither.  My LHBS sells bulk extract in 1/2 gal. plastic tubs with snap on lids.  I buy a few of them and use them for yeast storage.    They're unbreakable and the lids will just pop up a bit if too much pressure builds.  I've been using them for 10+ years with no problems at all.  I sanitize with StarSan.

I use sanitized 2L soda bottles.


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Tommy M.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2014, 12:04:54 PM »
I use anything from plastic bags in Tupperware containers to mason jars to plastic tea or juice containers to wide mouth 2000ml Erlenmeyer flasks with a foil covering (all sanitized, of course), but my favorite is no container at all.  I time my racking from primary to coincide with my brewing day, so I just swirl and pour from a primary into oxygenated, chilled wort that is waiting for the pitch in another primary fermenter.  No muss, no fuss.  Of course don't pitch it all! Half of the slurry for lagers and a third for ales, if it is pretty fresh (less than a month or so in the primary).

Watch the number of generations, but I have gone over 20 generations with WLP 800 without incident (I just wanted to try new yeast for my standby lager).
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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »
Denny too, would you say using flasks or mason jars are better? Also how would you recommend sanitizing them?

I have used both types of containers, and I prefer to use flasks if they are available.  Using Mason jars became standard practice back in the early days of brewing because lab glassware was difficult to obtain.  Scientific equipment suppliers only shipped to labs.  The use of baby food jars for making slants and small volumes of canned sterile wort was also part of the "make do with what you can get" early amateur brewing  culture.  I used recycled, de-labeled 4oz baby food jars for autoclaving solid and liquid culturing media during my first ten years in the hobby.  I now use Corning 1395-100 100ml Pyrex media bottles, and I would never go back to using baby food jars.








Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Friends don't let friends use Star San as their primary sanitizer

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2014, 12:48:16 PM »
Can you define your entire process for us S?  Ill try it, the only reason i was rinsing is because it was the most used method i could find instructions for.

My bottom cropping technique is outlined in paragraph number four of the original post in this thread.  It's basically the same technique that Denny uses with a couple of twists. 

As I mentioned earlier in response to Denny's post, the core bottom cropping technique that Denny and I use is used by almost all experienced amateur brewers that I know.  We have been cropping this way for so long that we can hold a conversation and do it at the same time without spilling any of the crop. 

One habit that all brewers should get into is the habit of wiping all pouring surfaces with a cotton ball soaked with 95% ethanol (or 91% isopropyl alcohol if one is patient enough to allow it to flash off) before decanting any yeast culture (that includes starters and all steps in the starter process).  The pouring surface of a container holding a yeast culture should always be treated like it is contaminated.  Just as a nurse or doctor disinfects one's skin before injecting one with a syringe to ensure that the needle does not drag surface bacteria into the injection site, wiping the pouring surface of a container that contains a yeast culture  prevents the yeast culture from dragging any wild microflora that may be resting on the pouring surface into fresh media or wort.  It's a cheap insurance policy.
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Friends don't let friends use Star San as their primary sanitizer

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

Offline denny

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2014, 12:58:07 PM »
One habit that all brewers should get into is the habit of wiping all pouring surfaces with a cotton ball soaked with 95% ethanol (or 91% isopropyl alcohol if one is patient enough to allow it to flash off) before decanting any yeast culture (that includes starters and all steps in the starter process).  The pouring surface of a container holding a yeast culture should always be treated like it is contaminated.  Just as a nurse or doctor disinfects one's skin before injecting one with a syringe to ensure that the needle does not drag surface bacteria into the injection site, wiping the pouring surface of a container that contains a yeast culture  prevents the yeast culture from dragging any wild microflora that may be resting on the pouring surface into fresh media or wort.  It's a cheap insurance policy.

I work on the assumption that if the beer I'm cropping from isn't infected, then the sanitation is good and I don't need to bother wiping down the rim of my bucket before I pour.  Hasn't failed in hundreds of times.
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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2014, 08:20:45 PM »
I work on the assumption that if the beer I'm cropping from isn't infected, then the sanitation is good and I don't need to bother wiping down the rim of my bucket before I pour.  Hasn't failed in hundreds of times.

The rim of a bucket is covered by a lid that keeps house dust from settling on it.  However, I still wipe the rim on my bucket out of habit when cropping. I also use carboys and better bottles with stoppers and airlocks for primary fermentation.  The pouring surface is not protected from settling house dust in that situation.  House dust is a rich source of bacteria.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 06:13:47 AM by S. cerevisiae »
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Friends don't let friends use Star San as their primary sanitizer

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

Offline ajk

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2014, 06:09:09 AM »
One habit that all brewers should get into is the habit of wiping all pouring surfaces with a cotton ball soaked with 95% ethanol
What's your source for 95% ethanol?  Everclear?  Something lab-grade?
(or 91% isopropyl alcohol if one is patient enough to allow it to flash off)
How do you know how long to wait?  I just guess, but I'm never sure.

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2014, 06:36:12 AM »
What's your source for 95% ethanol?  Everclear?  Something lab-grade?

Everclear works well; however, its sale is banned in many states.

Quote
How do you know how long to wait?  I just guess, but I'm never sure.

I flame isopropyl off of glass, which is why I prefer to use borosilicate (Pyrex, Kimax) glassware for yeast storage.   I wait until the surface is visually dry on plastic. Ninety-one percent isopropyl flashes off quickly if applied lightly.  That's why I use it and not the garden variety 70% stuff.  The trick is to thoroughly saturate the cotton ball without filling it with so much alcohol that it is sopping wet.
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Friends don't let friends use Star San as their primary sanitizer

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

Offline erockrph

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Re: Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2014, 08:38:04 AM »
What's your source for 95% ethanol?  Everclear?  Something lab-grade?

Everclear works well; however, its sale is banned in many states.

Quote
How do you know how long to wait?  I just guess, but I'm never sure.

I flame isopropyl off of glass, which is why I prefer to use borosilicate (Pyrex, Kimax) glassware for yeast storage.   I wait until the surface is visually dry on plastic. Ninety-one percent isopropyl flashes off quickly if applied lightly.  That's why I use it and not the garden variety 70% stuff.  The trick is to thoroughly saturate the cotton ball without filling it with so much alcohol that it is sopping wet.

While high concentration IPA or ethanol would definitely be preferred for applications where it is being flamed off, the 70% concentration is preferred for surface sterilization. While IPA and ethanol do have a short contact time for most pathogens, it isn't instant. The higher concentrations have the potential of flashing off before the necessary contact time has been achieved.

In addition, while there is no conclusive data that I have seen, the consensus seems to be that a minimum amount of water is needed for alcohol to be effective. The idea is that the water is required for protein denaturation. High concentration alcohol is extremely hygroscopic (i.e., it draws water out of solution, the air, etc.). The end result is that it could potentially dry out the cell membrane, preventing its ability to enter the cell. The quoted range of concentrations where alcohol is generally considered most effective is in the 60-80% range, and effectiveness falls off rapidly below 50%.

In healthcare applications, we use 70% ethanol or IPA almost exclusively for sterilizing surfaces. If I were to use a commercially available liquor in my home brewery, I would choose 151 proof rum over vodka (too low ethanol concentration) or Everclear (too high).
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer