Author Topic: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?  (Read 1222 times)

Offline trapae

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Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« on: July 21, 2014, 08:37:58 PM »
For those who hopstand/whirlpool hops, who uses only bittering plus whirlpool, vs bittering, other boil additions plus whirlpool, and why?
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 05:01:14 AM »
For beers where I hopstand (APA, AIPA, ie., most American styles) I use a bittering addition, hopstand addition (170-175F), and dry hops only. Hopstand/whirlpool hops give you plenty of good hop flavor - the late boil hops just aren't needed when you do this IMO.
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Offline mihalybaci

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 06:26:27 AM »
I made a SMASH beer (sort of a hybrid english bitter) with just a first wort addition plus a whirlpool/steep addition, and I really liked the results. Lots of hop flavor, not quite as much aroma as dry hops though. I used the the same FWH/whirlpool additions for a saison I brewed on Sunday, hopefully it turns out just as well.

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 07:27:47 AM »
I do 60, 20, 10, and 5 minute hop additions plus a steep.  Why?  Because I like the results.  Objectionable aromas like cat pee and onions seems to be reduced or eliminated with some boil time.  I don't steep hops that are prone to foul aromas.   

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 07:39:24 AM »
I made a SMASH beer (sort of a hybrid english bitter) with just a first wort addition plus a whirlpool/steep addition, and I really liked the results. Lots of hop flavor, not quite as much aroma as dry hops though. I used the the same FWH/whirlpool additions for a saison I brewed on Sunday, hopefully it turns out just as well.

I tried FWH on a saison and thought it was too smooth in the bitterness.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 08:07:43 AM »
I do 60, 20, 10, and 5 minute hop additions plus a steep.  Why?  Because I like the results.  Objectionable aromas like cat pee and onions seems to be reduced or eliminated with some boil time.  I don't steep hops that are prone to foul aromas.   

I'm finding the opposite. Some hops like Citra seem to stay soft and pleasant when they are not used in the boil. I have to wonder if there is some sort of isomerization reaction that creates those off aromas like cat pee and garlic? It does seem limited to certain hop varieties.
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Offline Joe T

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 08:31:31 AM »
For beers where I hopstand (APA, AIPA, ie., most American styles) I use a bittering addition, hopstand addition (170-175F), and dry hops only. Hopstand/whirlpool hops give you plenty of good hop flavor - the late boil hops just aren't needed when you do this IMO.
I agree with this with the exception of cooling to 170f before adding steeping hops. But only because I haven't tried it. I add a small bittering addition(25 ibu for an IPA) and the rest at FO and I have loved the results.

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 08:46:32 AM »
I do 60, 20, 10, and 5 minute hop additions plus a steep.  Why?  Because I like the results.  Objectionable aromas like cat pee and onions seems to be reduced or eliminated with some boil time.  I don't steep hops that are prone to foul aromas.   

I'm finding the opposite. Some hops like Citra seem to stay soft and pleasant when they are not used in the boil. I have to wonder if there is some sort of isomerization reaction that creates those off aromas like cat pee and garlic? It does seem limited to certain hop varieties.

The results of this study are consistent with my observations.

http://fba.asbcnet.org/publications/journal/vol/Articles/ASBCJ-2008-0702-01.pdf

4mmp = potential for cat pee


Offline erockrph

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 10:30:00 AM »
I do 60, 20, 10, and 5 minute hop additions plus a steep.  Why?  Because I like the results.  Objectionable aromas like cat pee and onions seems to be reduced or eliminated with some boil time.  I don't steep hops that are prone to foul aromas.   

I'm finding the opposite. Some hops like Citra seem to stay soft and pleasant when they are not used in the boil. I have to wonder if there is some sort of isomerization reaction that creates those off aromas like cat pee and garlic? It does seem limited to certain hop varieties.

The results of this study are consistent with my observations.

http://fba.asbcnet.org/publications/journal/vol/Articles/ASBCJ-2008-0702-01.pdf

4mmp = potential for cat pee



I read that study a bit differently. 4MMP is decreasing in the boil, but increasing in fermentation. This says to me that the 4MMP is being chemically bound during the boil (and the authors also refer to two studies that have indeed found that is is happening), and then released by the yeast during fermentation. Since 4MMP has a flash point of 129F, it looks like this conjugation may have a protective effect - i.e., the 4MMP gets bound during the boil before it can flash off.

Furthermore, they also indicate that copper binds 4MMP. So, if you use a copper wort chiller that is another mechanism where you may possibly end up with more 4MMP in your finished beer by boiling it compared to steeping it, if it turns out that the bound 4MMP has less affinity for copper.

Regardless, we taste with our tongues and not an HPLC. The chemistry here is complicated enough where sensory analysis will continue to trump chemical analysis for quite some time, I'm sure.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2014, 10:32:36 AM »
And back to the OP - I typically use a 60-minute addition in addition to a hop stands when A) I want a firmer bitterness in an IPA (which is getting less and less often these days) or B) I want a controlled amount of IBU's. In case B I wait until my wort gets down to 180-185ish before adding my steep hops, to minimize further isomerization.
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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2014, 11:14:28 AM »
What most people describe as piney, I describe as freshly-soiled litter box. 
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2014, 11:27:14 AM »
What most people describe as piney, I describe as freshly-soiled litter box.

I have a kitty with an aim problem, so I am no stranger to the heady aroma of cat urine. Yet I've never picked up any flavor/aroma of cat pee in a beer. It never ceases to amaze me how different everyone's perceptions of taste and aroma are.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2014, 11:43:56 AM »
Except for Simcoe to me.....sometimes.  I love the hop and have used it at a lot of different times and methods and don't find the cattiness more common in late hopping vs hop stand vs dry hopping . I often times don't get it at all. But I'd love to figure it out or see some convincing study info along the lines of the posted study. So for the time being, I'm convinced some or most of the 'cat pee' thing is harvest/ grower/ 'terroir' related.
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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2014, 02:40:11 PM »
Chinook was the first hop I encountered that made me fully appreciate the term "catty;" however, it is like a breath of fresh air compared to Simcoe. Simcoe is cat funk central.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Hopstand/whirlpool + boil additions? Who does what?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 02:55:12 PM »
It pretty much comes down to the style but in my case for my pales I usually will do a nice bittering charge at 60, then a flame out/whirlpool/steep addition and then dry hop.

For the latest IPA I just brewed I did a FWH, a 60 minute, a 10min, a 5 min and a flameout/whirlpool/steep (30 min) and plan on dry hopping as well.

Some styles I'll simply do a 60 minute like a Hefe and that's it. I usually don't do any charges from the 60 to 10 minute mark, I've tried them in the past and my results are inconclusive to what they contribute.
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