[morticaixavier]

Hey all, first time poster here - hoping to get some good knowledge and avoid the cross-fire that has taken place on this particular thread 

I don't think this has much to do with the lack of hoppiness issue that we are having with this batch, I tend to agree with the change in water used, but thought it was interesting that the sparge took only 25 minutes.  I'm a fly sparger as well (for the time being) and try to get about a gallon per 10 minutes into the kettle.  If I'm ahead or behind this schedule I tweak the ball valve on my mash tun accordingly.  This may or may not have been a contributing reason for a low OG?

Please don't judge the forum based on this interaction. such events are rare on this board.

[HoosierBrew]

Please don't judge the forum based on this interaction. such events are rare on this board.

+1.  98% of the interaction here is about helping and camaraderie.

[ynotbrusum]

Science evolves constantly and yeast is one of the most studied micro-organisms out there, I am told.  Much of what science tells us is helpful and applicable to homebrewing, but not all, as said above.  I love the civil debate that arises here and I have admitted numerous times that I was applying either old science, homebrewing false adages that survive by passing on without real life application, or just plain trial and error by my experience, that happened to be wrong - but by dumb luck had not resulted in a problem for me to date (where other similar, repeatable results of others show it to be a problem in certain circumstances). 

So, being open minded is key.  I know Denny to have a sophisticated palate and to also try things to objectively nail down processes and defects when suspected processes are analyzed.  I think you will find most commenters to appreciate that this is a hobby, that science helps in making better beer, but extrapolating results from lab to homebrew isn't always perfect, and ultimately, trying things for yourself really is the best way to proceed.  Don't hesitate to post out of fear of reprisal.

[klickitat jim]

Cool debate! Let's see if I understand the scientific side. I put my yeast sample in a 2L starter wort and put it on a stirplate, opening of the flask covered with foil so O2 can get in, right? Then it stirs, and yeast uptake O2, build their sterols, bud, multiply, consume sugars, done. Done meaning that its now beer minus hops. Its still in the flask with exposure to O2 and stiring. Science is saying that it won't oxydize?

If that's true why not put my 5 gallon beer batch on a big stirplate with exposure to O2 and let it go till its all done. Or why do we worry about exposing our finished beer to O2 when we rack it, bottle it, keg it? Why do they sell O2 scrubbing bottle caps?

I've oxydized a beer before by simply bottling off of a perfect keg to a sanatized 12oz bottle, even after filling to overflow and capping on foam. It was finished beer, unfiltered so it had yeast in it...

It seems to me that it might be true on paper that my beer isn't oxydizing, but ONLY on paper, and only if you pull out that one data point and ignore the myriad of complexity that is beer making, and the widespread experience of nearly every brewer.

Having said that, I reserve the right to be wrong and still lesrn something.

[brewmichigan]

I can understand why you want to argue this topic.  You are quite sure your practice is THE way to make beer.  You have likely made thousands of posts on the topic in a similar manner and really hate to admit being wrong in prolific retrospect.  Most of the time you give very solid advice based on plenty of brewing experience and a very good understanding of how to brew. 

However, this is a time where you are more concerned about protecting your reputation than actually accepting something science has determined which contradicts your personal experience.   

Some people take your advice without questioning it.  Others do some research and try something contrary to your advice and determine there is more than one way to make a tasty beer. 

wow...just wow....

This is the closest I've seen Denny to being speechless.

It's the only way I can respond to a personal, insulting attack.

He's just jealous of the beard. 

[denny]

He's just jealous of the beard. 

well, he has every right to be!   

[reverseapachemaster]

Cool debate! Let's see if I understand the scientific side. I put my yeast sample in a 2L starter wort and put it on a stirplate, opening of the flask covered with foil so O2 can get in, right? Then it stirs, and yeast uptake O2, build their sterols, bud, multiply, consume sugars, done. Done meaning that its now beer minus hops. Its still in the flask with exposure to O2 and stiring. Science is saying that it won't oxydize?

If that's true why not put my 5 gallon beer batch on a big stirplate with exposure to O2 and let it go till its all done. Or why do we worry about exposing our finished beer to O2 when we rack it, bottle it, keg it? Why do they sell O2 scrubbing bottle caps?

The study quoted a couple pages back says unhopped beer doesn't present oxidized flavors, which is why it wouldn't work for your five gallon batch of hopped beer.

FWIW, the study linked earlier said unhopped beer did not display "typical staling flavors" with reference to the staling flavors one gets from oxidized hop compounds. The study looked at the shelf life of well treated beer with regard to hop compounds.The study did not discuss staling or oxidized flavor compounds resulting from oxidation of any grain-based compounds in the beer. Nor did it review beer subjected to the oxidizing environment of a stir plate. The conclusions of that particular study are inapplicable to the issue of decanting a starter.

[klickitat jim]

That makes sense I suppose. So this IS a matter of someone taking one data point out of context and declaring it empirical evidence.

[beerlord]

I decided to try some water treatment as many of my IPA's haven't been as hoppy and flavorful and aromatic as I liked. So far, after just 1 completed brew, I notice a difference using less than my normal amount of hops. I have a second brew fermenting and if I notice some difference, I'll likely forget about hopstanding and save brew day time and just do late additions with some dry hopping. 
So, take a look at your water as it might just be that simple.