Author Topic: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?  (Read 1965 times)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2014, 07:03:05 PM »
What the....this is about decanting a starter?

Just think it through .... What good does spent wort bring to a beer?  Whether oxidized or not?  Have any award winning beers been made with dumping the whole starter into the wort?  I doubt it.  Science or not, the question is what is best for the beer?
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2014, 09:57:11 PM »
I really hate to get involved in flame wars, which is why I spend my time on this particular forum, but I feel the need to chime in on a few things.

First of all, if there's anything I've learned from Denny it's not to take anyone's word for anything and to try it out for yourself. Oftentimes my results are in line with Denny's, but not always. In the end, I do what works for me. I've certainly never felt like Denny's way is the only right way.

As far as the other experts mentioned, I certainly trust Charlie Bamforth, but keep in mind that he is most concerned with the scale and procedures at the commercial size. That doesn't always extrapolate well to the homebrew scale.

And the Yeast book was mentioned. I don't know how anyone could quote Jamil and try to use that to discredit Denny. Don't get me wrong, I have learned a lot from Jamil over the years and there's no doubt that he has been a tremendous asset to the homebrew community. But all the disparaging comments made about Denny in this thread could be applied just as equally to Jamil.

As far as starters go, if I'm taking the time to determine how much of each ingredient I'm using in a recipe down to the ounce, why would I pitch a couple of liters of light DME that was fermented way too hot? Decanting seems like a no-brainer to me.
Eric B.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2014, 04:48:22 AM »
What the....this is about decanting a starter?

Just think it through .... What good does spent wort bring to a beer?  Whether oxidized or not?  Have any award winning beers been made with dumping the whole starter into the wort?  I doubt it.  Science or not, the question is what is best for the beer?

+100
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2014, 08:40:49 AM »
For some reason I crash and decant the 4 to 5 liter starters for my lagers.
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Offline Titanium Brewing

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2014, 12:19:33 PM »
I'd like to chime in about the Kroger Spring Water the OP mentioned. I used to use it all the time, I recently started using Kroger RO + Bru'n'Water and my batches have been much better since.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 05:07:27 PM by Titanium Brewing »
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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2014, 01:42:21 PM »
Unhopped beers seldom develop an oxidized flavor, which suggests a likely role for the iso-alpha acids as precursors of staling compounds (Hashimoto et al., 1979).  Hashimoto is an authority on the subject.

N. Hashimoto is definitely a frequently cited authority when it comes to beer staling compounds.  It's amazing how much the amateur brewing community has ignored the body of his research.  He was the first researcher to link the enzymatic oxidation of linoleic acid and linolenic acid by lipoxygenase to the precursors (hyrdoperoxides) that lead to the formation of trans-2-nonenal (a.k.a. wet cardboard/paper).

Offline denny

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2014, 01:46:35 PM »
Unhopped beers seldom develop an oxidized flavor, which suggests a likely role for the iso-alpha acids as precursors of staling compounds (Hashimoto et al., 1979).  Hashimoto is an authority on the subject.

N. Hashimoto is definitely a frequently cited authority when it comes to beer staling compounds.  It's amazing how much the amateur brewing community has ignored the body of his research.  He was the first researcher to link the enzymatic oxidation of linoleic acid and linolenic acid by lipoxygenase to the precursors (hyrdoperoxides) that lead to the formation of trans-2-nonenal (a.k.a. wet cardboard/paper).

If his research doesn't correlate to my experiences, it really doesn't matter to me as anything other than a curiosity.  I know what works for me and what doesn't and someone else's research doesn't change that.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 02:31:18 PM »


If his research doesn't correlate to my experiences, it really doesn't matter to me as anything other than a curiosity.  I know what works for me and what doesn't and someone else's research doesn't change that.

^^THIS.

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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2014, 03:10:44 PM »
If his research doesn't correlate to my experiences, it really doesn't matter to me as anything other than a curiosity.  I know what works for me and what doesn't and someone else's research doesn't change that.

Brewing like engineering is an applied technical discipline that is a combination of theory + practice.  Like engineering, leaning too much to one of side of the equation limits one's potential.   Many phenomena have been explained that purely practical brewers ignore.  Conversely, there are still enough gray areas within the field of brewing science that a purely practical brewer may be on to something.   If you truly believe that your practices result in better outcomes, then apply for one or more research grants from the AHA, perform controlled experiments, and publish your findings.  Nothing quiets one's opponents faster in a debate than verifiable facts.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 03:18:14 PM by S. cerevisiae »

Offline denny

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2014, 03:18:19 PM »
If his research doesn't correlate to my experiences, it really doesn't matter to me as anything other than a curiosity.  I know what works for me and what doesn't and someone else's research doesn't change that.

Brewing like engineering is an applied technical discipline that is a combination of theory + practice.  Like engineering, leaning too much to one of side of the equation limits one's potential.   Many phenomena have been explained that purely practical brewers ignore.  Conversely, there are still enough gray areas within the field of brewing science that a purely practical brewer may be on to something.   If you truly believe that your practices result in better outcomes, then apply for one of more research grants from the AHA, perform controlled experiments, and publish your findings.  Nothing quiets one's opponents faster in a debate than verifiable facts.

They provide better outcomes for _me_.  I just wrote a book about how everyone should experiment to find out what works for them.  I have no "opponents" because no one else has brewed my beer.  I know what works here in my brewery, and it's not because of blind luck.  It's because I start by looking at the research of others, then testing its validity in my situation.  If I get the same results they do, great.  If not, great.  Either way, I find out how to make _my_ beer better and the brewing it more enjoyable.  It is, after all, a hobby.  If you aren't enjoying it to the max, you're doing it wrong.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2014, 03:37:46 PM »
For me, I'm appreciative of ANY brewing related research that gets posted that can possibly improve the quality of my beer, or just improve my beer related knowledge. I've brewed long enough to know that being closed-minded can get your brewing process (and beer) stuck in a dated rut - so I'm always looking to improve. But as someone who works in a technological field, I know that :  A/ Studies can be flawed,   and that     B/ Studies can be accurate, but not as broadly applicable as intended, for any number of reasons.

 I assume that any reputable info that is presented to me is usable by me until I run into direct contradiction to it at home, especially multiple times. When this happens (and I feel certain of my observation), I generally chalk it up to option B above. As mentioned, there are basic brewing truths , but there are also still gray areas in the relationship between commercial/production brewing and brewing in a cooler.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 05:54:39 PM by HoosierBrew »
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Offline duboman

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2014, 05:04:25 PM »



If his research doesn't correlate to my experiences, it really doesn't matter to me as anything other than a curiosity.  I know what works for me and what doesn't and someone else's research doesn't change that.

^^THIS.
^^This +1
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2014, 07:15:37 PM »
For me, I'm appreciative of ANY brewing related research that gets posted that can possibly improve the quality of my beer, or just improve my beer related knowledge. I've brewed long enough to know that being closed-minded can get your brewing process (and beer) stuck in a dated rut - so I'm always looking to improve. But as someone who works in a technological field, I know that :  A/ Studies can be flawed,   and that     B/ Studies can be accurate, but not as broadly applicable as intended, for any number of reasons.

 I assume that any reputable info that is presented to me is usable by me until I run into direct contradiction to it at home, especially multiple times. When this happens (and I feel certain of my observation), I generally chalk it up to option B above. As mentioned, there are basic brewing truths , but there are also still gray areas in the relationship between commercial/production brewing and brewing in a cooler.

well said, I will add that all too often you see a one sentence extract of study results offered as an universal fact when the actual data supports a statistical range of outcomes.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2014, 05:22:53 AM »
Good points all around. There is a gap (sometimes a sizeable one) between what happens under controlled conditions in the lab and a drinker's experience when consuming a beer. We don't taste with HPLC or GC/MS. Good, controlled experiments are necessarily narrow in scope to give useful results. But there are literally hundreds of confounding variables in brewing that pose barriers to applying these results universally.

Like all applied sciences, experimental results can't be viewed in a vacuum. If experimental results do not match real world experience, then that's a sign that there's something else going on. Which calls for more research, ad infinitum.
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Offline jtoots

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Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2014, 05:37:32 AM »
Hey all, first time poster here - hoping to get some good knowledge and avoid the cross-fire that has taken place on this particular thread  :o

I don't think this has much to do with the lack of hoppiness issue that we are having with this batch, I tend to agree with the change in water used, but thought it was interesting that the sparge took only 25 minutes.  I'm a fly sparger as well (for the time being) and try to get about a gallon per 10 minutes into the kettle.  If I'm ahead or behind this schedule I tweak the ball valve on my mash tun accordingly.  This may or may not have been a contributing reason for a low OG?