Author Topic: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA  (Read 1314 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2014, 09:08:38 AM »
I wonder if it would change the flavor characteristics of the dry hop?

In my experience, it's entirely possible.  I recently started xferring to secondary before dry hopping because I found that I seem to get a "cleaner" dry hop character by doing that.  It's about the only time I use a secondary, but to me, the extra effort is worth it.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2014, 09:23:10 AM »


  I recently started xferring to secondary before dry hopping because I found that I seem to get a "cleaner" dry hop character by doing that.  It's about the only time I use a secondary, but to me, the extra effort is worth it.

Yep, it's worth it to me too.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:03:24 PM by HoosierBrew »
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Offline beersk

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2014, 11:58:42 AM »
I don't even dry hop anymore. I load the end of the boil up with hops and find I have plenty of flavor and aroma for my tastes. Maybe it wouldn't be enough for you... But I'm not a huge hop head, so that probably explains most of it. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love hoppy beers, just not for every beer, ya know? I'm more into balance...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:00:19 PM by beersk »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2014, 12:07:41 PM »
I love hoppy beers, just not for every beer, ya know? I'm more into balance...

Actually, I feel the same way for most styles. I love Belgian beers as much as anything and they're not very hoppy as a rule. I do like to hop some of the American styles fairly agressively, but I look for balance in everything else.
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Offline mugwort

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2014, 12:09:19 PM »
I would definitely look at your water composition for your hop-focused pale ales.
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Offline ajk

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 03:43:01 PM »
Did you squeeze the hop bag when removing it after dry hopping? I did that once, and it resulted in honey-like notes from oxidation.

Offline Brewtweak

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2014, 04:32:03 PM »
Did you squeeze the hop bag when removing it after dry hopping? I did that once, and it resulted in honey-like notes from oxidation.
I didn't use a hop bag for this brew. I did dry hop for a long time though, 14 days. I did tilt the fermenter a few inches each day to get the hops to drop a bit. But not enough to slosh things around.

I would definitely look at your water composition for your hop-focused pale ales.
This was my water profile using Brun' water. I'm still learning about water adjustments but It seemed to be inline with the suggested ranges for an IPA according to the water book and Martin's spread sheet.
CA - 107
Mg - 11
Sodium - 3
Sulfate - 138
Chloride - 56
Bicarb - 49
RA -   -42
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 03:05:20 AM by swlusk »
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Offline Brewtweak

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2014, 04:42:44 PM »
I wonder if it would change the flavor characteristics of the dry hop?

In my experience, it's entirely possible.  I recently started xferring to secondary before dry hopping because I found that I seem to get a "cleaner" dry hop character by doing that.  It's about the only time I use a secondary, but to me, the extra effort is worth it.
A couple of questions... do you transfer after fermentation is complete or as it is slowing? Also do you purge the secondary with co2? I don't keg so I'm considering buying a small setup to do this... or dry ice or something.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 03:07:55 AM by swlusk »
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Offline santoch

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2014, 10:56:35 PM »
Lots of folks confuse caramel malt flavor for butterscotch/diacetyl, so it might simply be that.

Also, a really good test is to take a bottle of it (you may need to make 1 bottle if you keg) and take it out of cold storage and let it warm up to room temp for a couple weeks.  If you get Mt. Vesuvius and lots of off flavors (acid, diacetyl) you'll know that it was an infection and the proper course of action is to replace all the rubber/plastic that ever came in contact with that beer and sanitize the bejeezus out of everything else.

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Offline Brewtweak

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2014, 06:26:39 PM »
Lots of folks confuse caramel malt flavor for butterscotch/diacetyl, so it might simply be that.

Also, a really good test is to take a bottle of it (you may need to make 1 bottle if you keg) and take it out of cold storage and let it warm up to room temp for a couple weeks.  If you get Mt. Vesuvius and lots of off flavors (acid, diacetyl) you'll know that it was an infection and the proper course of action is to replace all the rubber/plastic that ever came in contact with that beer and sanitize the bejeezus out of everything else.

HTH-
This is entirely possible. the beer never really tasted bad, it just changed it's character in fairly quick fashion. The dry hop flavor only lasted 2-3 weeks. What I'm tasting as a butterscotch flavor may just be the malt aging. I do unfortunately have to store at room temp which is about 68F. What I usually do is to put as much as I can in the fridge after its carbed, especially if I'm entering it in a comp. This beer was my first IPA and just seemed to mutate faster than I'm used to. Having said that, tonight I cracked open an Anderson Valley Hop Ottin IPA and was quite disappointed. Almost no hop aroma and nothing much more than bitterness in the flavor along with a dose of that all too familiar butterscotch flavor that was in my IPA. Mine was stronger, but it was the same flavor thing going on. I'm assuming that the Anderson IPA may have been on the shelf of the beer store for some time. quite interesting.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:28:31 PM by swlusk »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2014, 06:45:10 PM »

A couple of questions... do you transfer after fermentation is complete or as it is slowing? Also do you purge the secondary with co2? I don't keg so I'm considering buying a small setup to do this... or dry ice or something.

No, you don't really want to transfer the beer as it is slowing. The idea is to transfer clean, fairly clear beer into a secondary away from most of the yeast which can absorb some of the hop oils and change hop flavors and aromas - there is debate on whether it changes for the better or worse. I feel that dry hopping in cleaner, clearer beer gives a cleaner, longer lasting hop character. Some brewers and breweries use this method, others dry hop as fermentation subsides. What I do is to leave the beer in the primary for 2 or 3 weeks, to give the beer a chance to get pretty clear, and then rack into a keg and dry hop there. The best thing to do is experiment, to find out what method you like.

EDIT  -  Also, yes I purge any secondary or keg I use before racking into it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:48:03 PM by HoosierBrew »
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Offline Brewtweak

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2014, 08:44:25 PM »

A couple of questions... do you transfer after fermentation is complete or as it is slowing? Also do you purge the secondary with co2? I don't keg so I'm considering buying a small setup to do this... or dry ice or something.

No, you don't really want to transfer the beer as it is slowing. The idea is to transfer clean, fairly clear beer into a secondary away from most of the yeast which can absorb some of the hop oils and change hop flavors and aromas - there is debate on whether it changes for the better or worse. I feel that dry hopping in cleaner, clearer beer gives a cleaner, longer lasting hop character. Some brewers and breweries use this method, others dry hop as fermentation subsides. What I do is to leave the beer in the primary for 2 or 3 weeks, to give the beer a chance to get pretty clear, and then rack into a keg and dry hop there. The best thing to do is experiment, to find out what method you like.

EDIT  -  Also, yes I purge any secondary or keg I use before racking into it.
Thanks for the info. I'm looking into getting a second ported better bottle so I can transfer between two bottles with little or no air exposure. Hopefully with that and purging with CO2, I will get a longer shelf life.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2014, 05:19:25 AM »

[/quote]
This is entirely possible. the beer never really tasted bad, it just changed it's character in fairly quick fashion. The dry hop flavor only lasted 2-3 weeks. What I'm tasting as a butterscotch flavor may just be the malt aging. I do unfortunately have to store at room temp which is about 68F. What I usually do is to put as much as I can in the fridge after its carbed, especially if I'm entering it in a comp. This beer was my first IPA and just seemed to mutate faster than I'm used to. Having said that, tonight I cracked open an Anderson Valley Hop Ottin IPA and was quite disappointed. Almost no hop aroma and nothing much more than bitterness in the flavor along with a dose of that all too familiar butterscotch flavor that was in my IPA. Mine was stronger, but it was the same flavor thing going on. I'm assuming that the Anderson IPA may have been on the shelf of the beer store for some time. quite interesting.
[/quote]

Sounds like oxidation of hops to me. 

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Re: Question about a diacetyl flavor in an IPA
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2014, 06:29:32 AM »
You can still dry hop in primary, just cold crash for a few days then warm back up. Most of the yeast will drop out.

My personal experience has not been "off flavors" from yeast in suspension when dry hopping but more like, when the yeast drops out, if pulls the hop aroma down with it. So I don't think this is your off flavor. I think you are picking up diacetyl like flavors from the 100% MO. I would recommend switching over to a good US 2 row and see if the problem vanishes entirely.
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