Author Topic: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...  (Read 1274 times)

Offline Steve L

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Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« on: August 06, 2014, 11:25:43 PM »
I am constantly studying different techniques and phenomena in brewing. I have a question. let's say I'm brewing an IPA for a competition. Theoretically, hop compounds can potentially cling to yeast and drop out of solution during flocculation. This of course is dependent on a lot of factors. Would it be better to use a slightly less attenuative yeast strain and mash a little lower.., leaving a slightly more cloudy beer and keep more hop compounds in the beer or is it better to add additional hops to the beer and use a more attenuative yeast.  Since appearance is only 3 points on a scoresheet, is hop flavor more important than clarity? Just curious what you guys think...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 11:27:32 PM by swlusk »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 12:13:00 AM »
Actually, less attenuative strains like 1968 often (not always) drop clearer quicker than more attenuative, powdery ones that stay in solution until they finally finish their job and settle out. IMO the very easiest way to avoid yeast absorbing more of your hop character is to remove as much of the yeast from your beer as possible before dry hopping. As in :   1/   Leaving the beer in primary for say 2 - 3 weeks, rack to secondary or keg and dry hop , or
2/   After fermentation is verified done, cold crash the yeast ~ 32F for a few days, then rack to secondary or keg and dry hop.
Either way, you've effectively separated your beer from a lot of yeast. I've done this with 1056, not a terribly flocculent strain, many,many times.
Jon H.

Offline Steve L

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 12:23:21 AM »
Actually, less attenuative strains like 1968 often (not always) drop clearer quicker than more attenuative, powdery ones that stay in solution until they finally finish their job and settle out. IMO the very easiest way to avoid yeast absorbing more of your hop character is to remove as much of the yeast from your beer as possible before dry hopping. As in :   1/   Leaving the beer in primary for say 2 - 3 weeks, rack to secondary or keg and dry hop , or
2/   After fermentation is verified done, cold crash the yeast ~ 32F for a few days, then rack to secondary or keg and dry hop.
Either way, you've effectively separated your beer from a lot of yeast. I've done this with 1056, not a terribly flocculent strain, many,many times.
Do you think there are any issues with bottle conditioning with either of these approaches?
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 12:29:23 AM »
Not at all. There is always yeast in beer, but below a certain threshold it just doesn't appear as cloudy. More than enough in any beer to carb your bottles though. Good luck !
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Offline duboman

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 01:43:33 AM »
IME with competitions, you're more apt to get dinged for not enough flavor/aroma than clarity if the style calls for hop presence
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 07:04:02 AM »
In an IPA huge hop flavor and aroma are expected and some haze is also. But in my opinion the drier IPAs are more drinkable, so less attenuative yeast won't help. Less floculant? Maybe, but it's kind of like using the wrong tool. If you want more hop just add more hop. I know it sounds too easy, but it might just work.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 07:05:43 AM by klickitat jim »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 12:43:43 PM »
In an IPA huge hop flavor and aroma are expected and some haze is also. But in my opinion the drier IPAs are more drinkable, so less attenuative yeast won't help. Less floculant? Maybe, but it's kind of like using the wrong tool. If you want more hop just add more hop. I know it sounds too easy, but it might just work.
Bingo. Use the yeast that gets you the flavor profile, attenuation, and flocculation you want. If it drops the hop character too much, then add more hops. We're homebrewers; it's no big deal to add an extra ounce of hops.
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Offline Steve L

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 05:46:33 PM »
What seems like a good starting point for adding more hops. Mostly trial and error I'm sure, I'm feeling like adding 10% to my hop bill may be a sufficient starting point.
As a side note, I do use beersmith. I know it figures the yeast strain into its calculations for attenuation, I wonder if it does the same thing for hop utilization?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 06:05:10 PM »
If you have heard Stan Hieronymus speak at the NHC and follow what he writes on hops, he talks about biotranformantions that happen when the yeast are active. For example, it has been found that Linalool concentration goes up during fermentation. Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker like to add dry hops with 1 or 2 Plato left in the fermentation so that the yeast can work on the hop oils. Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River like to remove the hops. I think it comes down to what aromas the brewer is after. As homebrewers, we can do both if we wish.
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Offline Steve L

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 06:47:20 PM »
If you have heard Stan Hieronymus speak at the NHC and follow what he writes on hops, he talks about biotranformantions that happen when the yeast are active. For example, it has been found that Linalool concentration goes up during fermentation. Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker like to add dry hops with 1 or 2 Plato left in the fermentation so that the yeast can work on the hop oils. Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River like to remove the hops. I think it comes down to what aromas the brewer is after. As homebrewers, we can do both if we wish.
I have Stan's hop book, but I haven't started it yet. I'm about halfway through "Brewing Better Beer". I really need to listen to the NHC seminars...
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 06:57:53 PM »
If you have heard Stan Hieronymus speak at the NHC and follow what he writes on hops, he talks about biotranformantions that happen when the yeast are active. For example, it has been found that Linalool concentration goes up during fermentation. Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker like to add dry hops with 1 or 2 Plato left in the fermentation so that the yeast can work on the hop oils. Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River like to remove the hops. I think it comes down to what aromas the brewer is after. As homebrewers, we can do both if we wish.

I agree, I've made good beers using both methods. I guess I just prefer Vinnie's method a little better. OTOH, FW makes crazy good beers as well.
Jon H.

Offline Steve L

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2014, 10:08:07 AM »
Actually, less attenuative strains like 1968 often (not always) drop clearer quicker than more attenuative, powdery ones that stay in solution until they finally finish their job and settle out. IMO the very easiest way to avoid yeast absorbing more of your hop character is to remove as much of the yeast from your beer as possible before dry hopping. As in :   1/   Leaving the beer in primary for say 2 - 3 weeks, rack to secondary or keg and dry hop , or
2/   After fermentation is verified done, cold crash the yeast ~ 32F for a few days, then rack to secondary or keg and dry hop.
Either way, you've effectively separated your beer from a lot of yeast. I've done this with 1056, not a terribly flocculent strain, many,many times.

I'll be dry hopping this beer in a few days and I had a question about my racking to secondary. Does it matter if you rack at low temps as opposed to fermentation temps? Are you more likely to suffer oxydation when the beer is cold vs ferm temp? or is it a matter of indifference.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 11:46:56 AM »
Actually, less attenuative strains like 1968 often (not always) drop clearer quicker than more attenuative, powdery ones that stay in solution until they finally finish their job and settle out. IMO the very easiest way to avoid yeast absorbing more of your hop character is to remove as much of the yeast from your beer as possible before dry hopping. As in :   1/   Leaving the beer in primary for say 2 - 3 weeks, rack to secondary or keg and dry hop , or
2/   After fermentation is verified done, cold crash the yeast ~ 32F for a few days, then rack to secondary or keg and dry hop.
Either way, you've effectively separated your beer from a lot of yeast. I've done this with 1056, not a terribly flocculent strain, many,many times.

I'll be dry hopping this beer in a few days and I had a question about my racking to secondary. Does it matter if you rack at low temps as opposed to fermentation temps? Are you more likely to suffer oxydation when the beer is cold vs ferm temp? or is it a matter of indifference.

Doesn't matter, just be careful to avoid any splashing, if possible.

EDIT  -  It is best, as mentioned, to purge your secondary if at all possible. I dry hop in a purged keg - hop aroma compounds are susceptible to oxidation which can reduce the hop aroma we're after in hoppy beers.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 12:12:27 PM by HoosierBrew »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 11:50:26 AM »
Actually, less attenuative strains like 1968 often (not always) drop clearer quicker than more attenuative, powdery ones that stay in solution until they finally finish their job and settle out. IMO the very easiest way to avoid yeast absorbing more of your hop character is to remove as much of the yeast from your beer as possible before dry hopping. As in :   1/   Leaving the beer in primary for say 2 - 3 weeks, rack to secondary or keg and dry hop , or
2/   After fermentation is verified done, cold crash the yeast ~ 32F for a few days, then rack to secondary or keg and dry hop.
Either way, you've effectively separated your beer from a lot of yeast. I've done this with 1056, not a terribly flocculent strain, many,many times.

I'll be dry hopping this beer in a few days and I had a question about my racking to secondary. Does it matter if you rack at low temps as opposed to fermentation temps? Are you more likely to suffer oxydation when the beer is cold vs ferm temp? or is it a matter of indifference.
Since oxygen is more soluble at lower temperatures, I'm sure there's some hypothetical, miniscule increase in risk at colder temperatures. I think in reality that the difference is likely so small that you would have no need for concern. Proper technique (i.e., minimizing aeration, CO2 flushing if possible, etc) will have much more impact on the final product.
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Offline Steve L

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Re: Curious about hop flavor and yeast attenuation...
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 12:11:21 AM »
Very good. Does it matter if you purge before or after racking? Also I saw an interesting video where a guy put his dry hop in the secondary before racking. thought it was a cool idea.
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