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Author Topic: Mash Times  (Read 4823 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2014, 01:33:01 pm »
In any case, I will always argue that 45 minutes is good enough.  Or even 40.  No need to mash any longer than that unless you want the beer super dry.

Do you check your conversion efficiency?  Mine has gone from about 85% at 60 min. to 99-100% at 90.  I always do a 90 min. mash these days.

I never differentiated "conversion efficiency" from "X Y Z" other type of efficiency.  I use the more "pragmatic" and less scientific "brewhouse efficiency" that gets spat out by my homebrewing software.  When I see my brewhouse efficiency is in the 90s, then I don't care why.  In fact, I'm also the guy who OPENED the gap on my grain mill because I was worried that too high efficiency might be watering down the malt flavors in my beer -- the theory goes that I didn't need to use as much malt as other people, so this is why my malty beer were getting dinged in competition for "needs more maltiness" compared to others.  So now I shoot for mid-80s brewhouse efficiency, and I've been happy there ever since.  I really don't care about maximizing efficiency, as long as my beer tastes as good as possible.  I am also considering experimenting a lot more with no-sparge beers to maximize malt flavors.  Efficiency in the 60s is not bad at all, and might even be desirable, to me at least.  More experiments are needed.

Coincidentally, my last brew day was an APA with a pound of quick oats. I was worried about getting a stuck mash so I opened my gap a bunch. Didn't measure, just eyeballed it. Husks were all in tact and the crush was maybe 6-8 bits per kernel with very little powder. Mashed at 145 for 90 and my brew house efficiency went from 73% to 80%. Im leaving the rollers where they are I think. I'd rather not pulverize my husks and just mash a bit longer.

I have no idea how this plays into the discussion, just rambling I guess.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2014, 02:29:09 pm »
Using conversion efficiency, I can see which part of my mash efficiency may have problems.  Using mash efficiency, I can find out why my brewhouse efficiency is what it is.  To me, they all tie together and I need to know all of them to get a complete picture.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2014, 04:09:33 pm »
I found that with longer mash times at sub 147F temps, my lagers (BoPils, Helles, etc...) were just too dry and a bit watery (very low final gravities).  I upped the temperature to 150F+ to start and cut off the mash at 90 minutes max, sometimes only 60-75 minutes, and they had much better body and the dryness was reduced substantially. 

I have the Horst Dornbusch book on Helles, as well as the History of German Brewing, but I think some of his information is based on malts from a while back - these newer malts don't seem to need a protein rest IMHO.  Even so, he wrote the book and his position is not irrelevant to the discussion.  Again, try it and see what works for you.  I have found that short mashes have been pretty sufficient from a flavor and attenuation perspective.  I have given up on decoction as a pretty much "time and effort not worth the result" decision, unless I have a lot of extra time and want to experiment - like in the middle of winter....
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2014, 04:13:52 pm »
I found that with longer mash times at sub 147F temps, my lagers (BoPils, Helles, etc...) were just too dry and a bit watery (very low final gravities).  I upped the temperature to 150F+ to start and cut off the mash at 90 minutes max, sometimes only 60-75 minutes, and they had much better body and the dryness was reduced substantially. 

I have the Horst Dornbusch book on Helles, as well as the History of German Brewing, but I think some of his information is based on malts from a while back - these newer malts don't seem to need a protein rest IMHO.  Even so, he wrote the book and his position is not irrelevant to the discussion.  Again, try it and see what works for you.  I have found that short mashes have been pretty sufficient from a flavor and attenuation perspective.  I have given up on decoction as a pretty much "time and effort not worth the result" decision, unless I have a lot of extra time and want to experiment - like in the middle of winter....

+1 on all counts. I don't do a protein rest and pretty much wrote decoction mashes off as diminishing returns after a few very long brew days that didn't seem to have much added impact on final beer quality.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 04:28:55 pm by HoosierBrew »
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2014, 04:38:30 pm »
Mash temps are all well and good to follow, but if you repeating a beer recipe you should also be looking at what your final gravities are telling you.  For example, if you mash your IPA at 150F and the beer dries out to a 1.008 then you might want to consider mashing closer to 155F (providing your yeast pitching rate and oxygen are all the same) to increase your final gravity to 1.013-1.014 or so.  I have never given much credence  into what OG's and FG's the classic brewing software predicts.  Likewise with choosing a mash regimen in this fashion as well. Just my 2 cents, which doesn't get me much nowadays...

Offline kramerog

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 09:34:23 am »

Do you check your conversion efficiency?  Mine has gone from about 85% at 60 min. to 99-100% at 90.  I always do a 90 min. mash these days.

I used to.  Once I figured out that a consistent fine grind and 1.5 qt/lb mash thickness gets me consistently near a 100% conversion efficiency with a 60 minute mash for mash temps above 150 F, I stopped measuring.  To each their own!

I might start measuring again if I get a refractometer and try some new mash tweaks.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2014, 10:06:15 am »
FWIW, take a look at the presentation by Greg Doss of Wyeast from the 2012 NHC in Seattle.  Has some interesting correlations between time, temp and yeast strain.  IIRC, he found maximum fermentability at 153F.
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Offline denny

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2014, 10:07:54 am »
I used to.  Once I figured out that a consistent fine grind and 1.5 qt/lb mash thickness gets me consistently near a 100% conversion efficiency with a 60 minute mash for mash temps above 150 F, I stopped measuring.  To each their own!

I might start measuring again if I get a refractometer and try some new mash tweaks.

Yeah, I had stopped checking, but I had a run where my efficiencies were consistently low.  Although I haven't figured out exactly why yet (may have been the malt), I did find that a longer mash got it back up where it should be.
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Offline Pi

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 02:12:51 pm »
I shoul have read this before i posted about Oktoberfest Sacc. temps. So what happens if you mash at a high temp for a LONG time? Or the opposite, a short Beta, and long Alpha?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 03:16:05 pm »
I shoul have read this before i posted about Oktoberfest Sacc. temps. So what happens if you mash at a high temp for a LONG time? Or the opposite, a short Beta, and long Alpha?

there are limits to what is available to the enzymes. so a longer high temp rest will flatten out at or around 100% conversion efficiency. Assuming the temp is steady and not very very high, the beta enzymes will continue to work. so in theory, as long as you are within the temp range that beta amylase is active within even a moderatly high mash temp will results in a more fermentable wort.

the other direction, a short low temp rest will, if taken to an extreme, will results in poor conversion and there for poor extract and possibly starchy wort.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2014, 06:19:23 am »
But remember there are limits to this - you can't start too high, as in a mash out, or even the alpha amylase will be shut off!  The reverse at least preserves both and basically is a step mash.
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