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Author Topic: Vienna Waits for You  (Read 1604 times)

Offline Saccharomyces

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Vienna Waits for You
« on: February 26, 2021, 11:13:03 am »
I brewed this recipe last weekend.  I refer to it as a Viennaish beer because it is more than likely not true to style, but my girlfriend, who is not a brewer,  thought that the wort tasted very good.  If yeast the culture does its job, it is going to be a very good beer. Cascade used this way really brightens up the hop presence.

Vienna Waits for You

Original Brew Date:  2/21/2021

Style: Viennaish

Grist:

8lbs (3.67kg) Avangard Pils (69%)
2lbs  (0.91kg) Weyerman Barke Munich (17%)
1lb  (450g) Weyerman CaraRed (8.6%)
0.5lb (225g) Briess Torrified Wheat (4.3%)
2oz (56g) Briess Blackprinz (1.1%)

Boil Length: 2 hours

Hopping Schedule:

0.25 (7g) Hops Direct 2019 Cascade Pellets 6.3% AA  (60 minute boil)
0.25 (7g) Hops Direct 2019 Mt. Hood Pellets 6% AA  (60 minute boil)
0.25 (7g) Hops Direct 2019 Cascade Pellets 6.3% AA  (30 minute boil)
0.25 (7g) Hops Direct 2019 Mt. Hood Pellets 6% AA  (30 minute boil)
0.5 (14g) Hops Direct 2019 Cascade Pellets 6.3% AA  (10 minute boil)
0.5 (14g) Hops Direct 2019 Mt. Hood Pellets 6% AA  (10 minute boil)

Irish Moss:  1/4th teaspoon of Super Moss hydrated in 4 ounces of filtered water last 10 minutes

Strike Liquor:  4 U.S. gallons (15L) @ 174F/79C (charcoal filtered 66ppm TDS water with 3 grams of citric acid)

Sparge Liquor: 5 U.S. gallons (18L) @ 170F/77C (charcoal filtered 66ppm TDS water with 1 gram of citric acid)

Mash: Single Infusion @ 151F/66C for 90 minutes

Yeast: Imperial L28 Urkel

Original Gravity:  1.056 for 5.75 gallons (approximately 22L)

Ferment @ 54F
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 08:51:45 am by Saccharomyces »

Offline chumley

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 05:19:00 pm »
That's a great looking recipe. I like the mix of Cascade and Mount Hood. American C-hop and quasi-noble hop wannabe.

One of my favorite combinations in a similar vein was Amarillo and Tettnanger.  I used them in a similar fashion for a wheat rye ale, small amounts of each for bittering/flavor/aroma additions,

Offline denny

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2021, 08:46:51 am »
That's a great looking recipe. I like the mix of Cascade and Mount Hood. American C-hop and quasi-noble hop wannabe.

One of my favorite combinations in a similar vein was Amarillo and Tettnanger.  I used them in a similar fashion for a wheat rye ale, small amounts of each for bittering/flavor/aroma additions,

I started doing a lot of American/German combos after seeing how,well it worked in the Rye IPA with Columbus/Mt. Hood.  Cascade/Tettnang is another great combo.
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Offline Bilsch

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2021, 03:13:59 pm »
No Vienna malt, a Czech yeast and American hops. I'm curious what about this beer is Vienna'ish?

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2021, 03:22:38 pm »
No Vienna malt, a Czech yeast and American hops. I'm curious what about this beer is Vienna'ish?

80% pils ~15% munich 4% crystal and 1% black is my ideal alt recipe (torrified wheat? i guess thats what all the craft breweries do for body). also very low looking IBU? ~15 or so?


it will make a tasty beer for sure, probably end up like negra modelo. americans think directly of this as "vienna", but it was always pretty rare in canada so that dark red, sorta sweet vienna isnt the one that comes to mind for me.

this illustrates the divide in thought on "vienna" and why thread titles keep having this word in it lately.

Offline Bilsch

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2021, 03:40:15 pm »
I guess it could have been a polotmavý save for the hops so maybe more an American amber? And whats wrong with that, why does everything these days have to be some fancy sounding continental beer? The Kölsch everything is also getting out of hand. No such thing as coffee Kölsch or barrel soured dark raspberry Kölsch etc.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2021, 02:43:30 pm »
No Vienna malt, a Czech yeast and American hops. I'm curious what about this beer is Vienna'ish?

I guess that I am just not that literal when brewing.  The beer is more of a take on Vienna, so are Mexican clones of the Vienna style that are held up as standards; hence, the addition of “ish.”  In this instance “ish” means inspired by, but not exactly an attempt to create a true to style beer. What is Vienna? Well, although pale for the period of time in which it was introduced, Vienna could be classified as the original amber lager. This particular beer was an attempt to meet the gravity, bitterness level, and SRM of Vienna while not tasting wildly out of style.

What exactly makes this beer an American amber? As far as to the grist composition, the Pilsner, Munich, and CaraRed malt used in the recipe are continental in origin.  If it was an American amber, American 2-row and specialty malts would be employed. The blend I used maximized the use of my stock of ingredients. I do not stock Vienna malt, nor do I use Vienna malt enough to justify purchasing it in bulk at this point (that may change in the future if I decide to use Vienna malt as a replacement for British pale malt, which is basically what Dreher was attempting to create when he brought British kilning technology to Austria). I cannot justify buying base malt at over $2.00 per pound just to make a batch of beer when I can blend what I have on hand at $1.00 (or less) per pound.  That is just my frugality showing through. Torrified wheat is something that I like to add to grists.  The addition is not about flavor. It is about lace. I consider lace to the beer equivalent of "legs" in wine from an esthetic point of view.  Torrified wheat tends to lead to beautiful lace that clings to the sides of a glass. Blackprinz malt? Well, no one is going to meet the SRM range of the BJCP style guide for Vienna without resorting to the use of a coloring malt (or the use/overuse of a dark caramel/crystal malt).  We discussed that reality recently.

As far as to the hops, there is no surviving Austrian landrace hop.  The closest thing to an Austrain hop is Styrian Goldings, which is a Fuggle selection originally grown in the Austrian state of Styria. Even though I had German Mittelfrüh and Czech Saaz in my freezer, Mt. Hood is considered to be an acceptable interchangeable replacement for landrace noble hops in blends. That is the role for which the cultivar was bred to fill and did so successfully for many years.  After all, Mt. Hood is genetically 2/3rds Mittelfrüh and its brewing performance is much closer to that of continental landrace hops than modern American cultivars.  If one accepts Magnum as a hop for use in continental styles, then one has to accept Mt. Hood because Mt. Hood is genetically more German landrace than Magnum. While a lot of ale brewers like to capitalize on Cascade’s citrus profile when used generously as a finishing hop (thanks in large part to Anchor choosing Cascade as the hop for Anchor Liberty Ale), it works surprisingly well in noble/noble-derived hop blends, restraint is key.  Cascade was also originally bred to be used in this way, albeit with much lower acceptance rate than Mt. Hood.

As far as to yeast, well, where do we start? Dreher was not fermenting with a pure culture.  He was fermenting with a mixed culture of Saccharomyces pastorianus and cryotolerant Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains, as were all brewers employing bottom fermentation techniques at that point in time. Lager pure cultures did not exist until Emil Christian Hansen isolated Carslberg Unterhefe No. 1 in 1883; therefore, using a yeast culture that we classify as “Bohemian” today in fermenting Vienna-style beer is not off of the mark. The reality is that being part of a relatively young species within the Saccharomyces genus, Saccharomyces pastorianus strains have nowhere near the genetic diversity found in Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains. L28 Urkel is one of five different yeast strains that used to be employed in beer production at Pilsner Urquell.  It is classified as the “D” strain, which is no longer used by the brewery.  Where did Pilsner Urquell obtain its original mixed culture? Well, Josef Groll imported it from Bavaria (some people claim that he smuggled the mixed culture into Bohemia, but evidence points to the culture being acquired legally). It makes sense that Groll started with a Bavarian culture because he was a Bavarian brewer before taking over Pilsner Urquell.  The reality is that there is no such thing as a Vienna yeast culture that can be tied to Dreher.

In the end, what qualifies as a Vienna beer let alone a Viennaish beer?  Does it require a triple decoction mash and two-plus hour boil? Is Zatec Red (Czech Saaz from the Zatec Region) the only hop cultivar allowed in Vienna-style beer?  At that point in time, Zatec Red was still the king of the noble hop cultivars by a large margin.  We have no surviving recipe or living example of the beer style, so we are left with more questions than answers.  If the only requirement for Vienna-style beer is the use of continental Vienna malt, which may or may not be true to original Dreher spec, then that opens up a world of possibilities.

By the way, I just Googled “Vienna Cascade Mt. Hood” just to see if anyone else was crazy (open-minded?) enough to try the combo in a Vienna-style beer. Surprisingly, here is a commercial beer that is classified as being in the Vienna style that has the same hop bill and a grist that is not wildly different: https://www.sprecherbrewery.com/beers/special-amber/  Is it a Vienna-style beer? It depends on who one asks the question.


Offline BrewBama

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Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2021, 07:59:17 pm »
That reminds me of a Ron Pattison article where he was saying most people think British beers had British grain and British hops to be considered British. He gave numerous examples of beers that used imported hops and malts because the local farms couldn’t keep up with demand. He said they exported beer and imported hops and grain to make several renowned British beers.

I’ve been exploring British beer recipes lately and Bobek (Styrian Goldings) for example were/are quite popular in British beers ...and they’re from Slovenia.

Brew on!


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Offline denny

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2021, 08:43:17 am »
That reminds me of a Ron Pattison article where he was saying most people think British beers had British grain and British hops to be considered British. He gave numerous examples of beers that used imported hops and malts because the local farms couldn’t keep up with demand. He said they exported beer and imported hops and grain to make several renowned British beers.

I’ve been exploring British beer recipes lately and Bobek (Styrian Goldings) for example were/are quite popular in British beers ...and they’re from Slovenia.

Brew on!


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And IIRC, theyre actually Fuggles, not Goldings
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2021, 09:58:39 am »
And IIRC, theyre actually Fuggles, not Goldings

I mentioned that Styrian Goldings was a Fuggle selection in my post above.  While most people associate Stryian Goldings with Solvenia, they are called Styrian Goldings because the selection was first grown in the Austrian state of Stryia.  That means that Styrian Goldings were more than likely used in lager brewing at one point in time.   It makes sense because AB sponsored the development of Willamette as a replacement for Fuggle in their beers.  I like Fuggle, but I think Willamette has a better aroma and taste.  It is less dirt and more floral.  Styrian Goldings is also less dirt than Fuggle.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 09:42:50 pm by Saccharomyces »

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2021, 10:15:39 am »
... Willamette has a better aroma and taste.  It is less dirt and more floral.  Styrian Goldings is also less dirt than Fuggle.

+1


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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2021, 11:22:48 am »
And IIRC, theyre actually Fuggles, not Goldings

I mentioned that Styrian Goldings was a Fuggle selection in my post above.  While most people associate Stryian Golding with Solvenia, they are called Styrian Goldings because they selection was first grown in the Austrian state of Stryia.  That means that Styrian Golding were more than likely used in lager brewing at one point in time.   It makes sense because AB sponsored the development of Willamette as a replacement for Fuggle in their beers.  I like Fuggle, but I think Willamette has a better aroma and taste.  It is less dirt and more floral.  Styrian Goldings is also less dirt than Fuggle.

i used EKG only in the vienna i made, which i am waiting on to carbonate so i can give proper tasting notes and pics in the vienna thread.

i tried williamette once and it seemed really meh, i hate fuggles. i used styrian gol. once a long time ago and thought it was good. i wouldnt never buy fuggles again though. awful.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2021, 02:19:32 pm »
All of this plus about $3.50 might get me a cup of Starbucks coffee, but I'm reasonably certain that what is being mass marketed as Styrian Golding hops these days is actually a hybrid triploid cross between original Styrian Golding and Aurora and a wild hop, and it is officially to be called Celeia, or Styrian Celeia. 

The classic Styrian Golding of yore (meaning my younger adulthood) is now strictly marketed under the name Savinjski Golding or Styrian Savinjski Golding.

All of this was (per my recollection) due to some form of huff raised over product labeling by the EU.  Before then there was an ugly period when what you purchased as Styrian Golding was either Celeia or Savinjsky or a blend, and you had no clue as to what was in the package.  The EU courts apparently had to step in and at least try to set it right.

But here in the USA, who knows, the confusion may still abound.  ???
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 03:12:25 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Vienna Waits for You
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2021, 03:25:59 am »
Following up on my post above, Celeia has a more citrusy grapefruit nature and Savinjsky is more earthy like Fuggle.  Celeia and Aurora are the two main hops grown in Slovenia these days, and they are grown about equally as to annual yield.