[HoosierBrew]

I think it depends on what you're after. If the idea is a sessionable beer with some 'mild-like ' character, but West coast hopped (and you expect/are ok with the hop dominance), then it sounds pretty achievable. It would definitely take some experimentation to dial in some level of balance with this type of beer though. I use BU:GU to build a recipe - it's a great tool to get in the ballpark of what you're after. But hoppy session beers are notorious for being difficult to achieve skillfully. IIRC, Founder's almost gave up on the 'Session IPA' idea with their All Day IPA before getting it where they wanted.

Founders All Day IPA works for me, barely. I think anymore hop flavor (not talking bitterness) and it would be too fruity and not enough beer.

Yeah,I feel the same way.  I love hoppy beers but I've yet to have many hoppy session strength beers that had enough malt foundation to support the hops.

[yso191]

Mine will not be hoppy. To start I'm shooting for a Mild but with American flavors. Me like malt

Well THAT is a problem.  At least much more difficult to achieve than a session beer with hop character, since malt ~= gravity.  I really like the idea of a regional Mild Competition.  Is there a date / place?

[erockrph]

To be honest, "balance" is garbage as a descriptor for beer AFAIC. All beers are supposed to have balance, but you can't compare the balance of a doppelbock to the balance of an IIPA. Unless you're talking about a specific set of guidelines for a defined style, then balance doesn't mean much. For an undefined style "balance" is whatever the brewer decides it should be.

[HoosierBrew]

To be honest, "balance" is garbage as a descriptor for beer AFAIC. All beers are supposed to have balance, but you can't compare the balance of a doppelbock to the balance of an IIPA. Unless you're talking about a specific set of guidelines for a defined style, then balance doesn't mean much. For an undefined style "balance" is whatever the brewer decides it should be.

I totally agree about balance with some styles -  I don't remotely think an AIPA or Wee Heavy should have the same level of 'balance' as something like a BoPils or American Amber . I also agree that an undefined style gives you license to brew it any way you choose ( or any dang beer, for that matter). I just meant that I haven't tried or brewed many low OG (sub 1.048)/high hopped beers that I liked as much as taking a more standard APA OG (1.052-1.056 ish) and hopping it up, for that matter. I don't want sweetness in pretty much any hoppy beer, just a firm, dryish base.

[tommymorris]

To be honest, "balance" is garbage as a descriptor for beer AFAIC. All beers are supposed to have balance, but you can't compare the balance of a doppelbock to the balance of an IIPA. Unless you're talking about a specific set of guidelines for a defined style, then balance doesn't mean much. For an undefined style "balance" is whatever the brewer decides it should be.

I totally agree about balance with some styles -  I don't remotely think an AIPA or Wee Heavy should have the same level of 'balance' as something like a BoPils or American Amber . I also agree that an undefined style gives you license to brew it any way you choose ( or any dang beer, for that matter). I just meant that I haven't tried or brewed many low OG (sub 1.048)/high hopped beers that I liked as much as taking a more standard APA OG (1.052-1.056 ish) and hopping it up, for that matter. I don't want sweetness in pretty much any hoppy beer, just a firm, dryish base.

Yes. Every beer has it's own balance. But, we have to have a word to describe the concept of IBU/OG ratio so we don't have to write or say IBU/OG ratio.

[erockrph]

Yes. Every beer has it's own balance. But, we have to have a word to describe the concept of IBU/OG ratio so we don't have to write or say IBU/OG ratio.

I guess that I don't equate balance to be the same thing as the BU:GU ratio - that just doesn't tell the whole story to me. A light lager and a Mild may have similar BU's and GU's, but I wouldn't say they have the same balance. The same beer brewed with 2-row or Munich for the base malt may have the same BU:GU, but will have a different balance. Same thing with a 60-IBU beer with a truckload of late hops versus none.

I guess "Balance" just seems like one of those fluff words that gets thrown around a lot and doesn't have a specific enough definition to be useful in a general context. Just a pet peeve of mine  /soapbox

[tommymorris]

Yes. Every beer has it's own balance. But, we have to have a word to describe the concept of IBU/OG ratio so we don't have to write or say IBU/OG ratio.

I guess that I don't equate balance to be the same thing as the BU:GU ratio - that just doesn't tell the whole story to me. A light lager and a Mild may have similar BU's and GU's, but I wouldn't say they have the same balance. The same beer brewed with 2-row or Munich for the base malt may have the same BU:GU, but will have a different balance. Same thing with a 60-IBU beer with a truckload of late hops versus none.

I guess "Balance" just seems like one of those fluff words that gets thrown around a lot and doesn't have a specific enough definition to be useful in a general context. Just a pet peeve of mine  /soapbox

I am an old man with lots of pet peeves and big soapbox. But, balance for lack of a better word is not one of them.

I am an engineer. We have lots of metrics that mean different things in different situations. For me balance is similar. Balance is the BU:GU ratio. I expect that ratio be different for a light lager, blonde ale, APA, or a IPA. Say 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 -ish respectively.

[klickitat jim]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

[tommymorris]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

Maybe I need a new word for my ratio.

[klickitat jim]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

Maybe I need a new word for my ratio.

Don't let what I say change anything. I'm usually wrong

[erockrph]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

So, then most beers are supposed to be unbalanced? Jeebus, it's sure getting dark down this rabbit hole...

I guess, to me "balance" is really specific to each particular beer. The balance for my IPA is just enough malt so you can tell it's a beer, just enough bitterness so you can tell it's not a Mai Tai, and busloads of hop flavor and aroma. For others, it's enough IBU's to strip the enamel off your teeth and a fair amount of hop flavor/aroma. For Sam Calagione, it's something else...

If even within one style there's no definite consensus of balance, then I just can't see the usefulness of the term.

[tommymorris]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

Jeebus, it's sure getting dark down this rabbit hole...

Going down rabbit holes is what we do while we wait for the beer to be ready.

[klickitat jim]

Regarding balance, to me it's when you can't really say which element leads the way. Hop bitterness, hop flavor, malt flavor, or fermentation esters. If all of those are on equal ground, you have balance.

So, then most beers are supposed to be unbalanced? Jeebus, it's sure getting dark down this rabbit hole...

I guess, to me "balance" is really specific to each particular beer. The balance for my IPA is just enough malt so you can tell it's a beer, just enough bitterness so you can tell it's not a Mai Tai, and busloads of hop flavor and aroma. For others, it's enough IBU's to strip the enamel off your teeth and a fair amount of hop flavor/aroma. For Sam Calagione, it's something else...

If even within one style there's no definite consensus of balance, then I just can't see the usefulness of the term.

Given that most beers are IPAs, yes.

[morticaixavier]

balance is a characteristic. it needs specifics to be useful. Levels and kinds. there is a sweetness/bitterness balance, a grain/hop/yeast balance, a spice/fruit/beer balance...

so don't say "this beer has good balance" because I agree with erock on that being as meaningless as "This beer has good color" it's fine as far as it goes but it doesn't really tell us anything about the beer, only about the speakers impression of the beer.

"This beer has a strong bready malt character balanced by a firm bitterness that prevents it from being cloying" is useful and descriptive of the balance (kind and level) of that beer.

[denny]

Well I'm going to take the devil's advocate position in one regard: balance. 

I can't imagine disliking a ~3% beer because the mouthfeel is thin but the hop bitterness and flavor are all that the brewer can force into the beer.  In other words I don't think I would dislike an unbalanced beer if it is unbalanced in the direction of hoppiness.

I can see I'm going to have to chime in with an experimental beer myself...

Agreed, Steve.