[phunhog]

That's awesome!!  The CA ABC is an interesting agency.....they have tens of thousands of alcohol establishments to regulate but only something like 125 alcohol agents for the entire state.  I believe Tasty once tweeted something along the lines of....."CA ABC is like a dictatorship with no army"

[ynotbrusum]

Alcohol rules don't have to make sense - the authorities know it and the legislators fear unregulated use, so they impose silly limitations.  Thanks AHA and those who rally the meek toward enlightenment!

[phunhog]

Alcohol rules don't have to make sense - the authorities know it and the legislators fear unregulated use, so they impose silly limitations.  Thanks AHA and those who rally the meek toward enlightenment!

So true!!  Then we are stuck with silly laws that don't make sense, aren't enforced, yet we still try to abide by them.

[dbeechum]

When enforcement happens, it's sorta terrifying. This year with the change in the law the ABC threatened the CHA board of directors with arrest if they put on the fest, so.. woo.

That's what happens when an enforcement agency feels like you're flaunting the law.

[phunhog]

When enforcement happens, it's sorta terrifying. This year with the change in the law the ABC threatened the CHA board of directors with arrest if they put on the fest, so.. woo.

That's what happens when an enforcement agency feels like you're flaunting the law.

Wow!! That's crazy!!  BUT as a AHA and CHA member why wasn't that brought to our attention?  I would LOVE for a news outlet to run a story on the CA ABC threatening to jail people for putting on a charity homebrew event.   As evidenced by the recent vote on AB 2609....which didn't receive a single "nay" vote we have both the legislature and public opinion on our side.   I have noticed a trend in homebrewing laws....nothing gets accomplished until someone gets in trouble or at least there is a threat of trouble.  That is how both 1425 and 2609 have been passed.  The ABC tries to enforce a "dumb" law, citizens notify their politicians, and the law is subsequently changed.   

[klickitat jim]

When enforcement happens, it's sorta terrifying. This year with the change in the law the ABC threatened the CHA board of directors with arrest if they put on the fest, so.. woo.

That's what happens when an enforcement agency feels like you're flaunting the law.

Wow!! That's crazy!!  BUT as a AHA and CHA member why wasn't that brought to our attention?  I would LOVE for a news outlet to run a story on the CA ABC threatening to jail people for putting on a charity homebrew event.   As evidenced by the recent vote on AB 2609....which didn't receive a single "nay" vote we have both the legislature and public opinion on our side.   I have noticed a trend in homebrewing laws....nothing gets accomplished until someone gets in trouble or at least there is a threat of trouble.  That is how both 1425 and 2609 have been passed.  The ABC tries to enforce a "dumb" law, citizens notify their politicians, and the law is subsequently changed.   

If the media ran the story...

Local home brewers threaten to go ahead with "charity" event. Police fear arrests must be made.

[dbeechum]

I have noticed a trend in homebrewing laws....nothing gets accomplished until someone gets in trouble or at least there is a threat of trouble. 

It's actually usually a little simpler than that. Usually everyone hums along just assuming that what we do is a okay, because it's never been pointed out as illegal. We know not to sell, we know to front as a commercial brewery (most of us), etc, etc. Otherwise, we act like - well we're being reasonable and the law must not mind since no one has said boo. Then...

Someone either truely spectactular messes up (not in my experience) or someone or some place with a monetary worry decides to check with their local ABC about the legality of a thing. Because the ABC's rules tend to be restrictive and not permissive, their first reaction is usually "no, you can't" and it's usually backed up by the strict wording in the law. That then means we lose our competitions, festivals, etc. (see Oregon) until we can get the law change. Even in Oregon, where the ABC was super favorable, they had to cancel their activities until they could get the legislature to act. That is the nature of the law, after all.

In the case of AB 1425, AB 2609 that all happened because someone up north wanted to make sure the donation of homebrewed beer and wine for a charity function was legal. The ABC said "what? no!" and so they went to the legislature (without spreading the word and allowing consultation) and passed a law that meant well and tried to close potential loopholes (e.g. no nonprofits that are about beer, etc). Then we had the side effect of the SCHF closure, followed by this years legislative activity and the ABC issuing it's clarification rulings.

It almost always begins as something well meaning and so, the debate a lot of folks have is - do we bring attention to what we're doing to attempt to become fully above board/legal or do we let the state slumber while we do this harmless thing? Ultimately, while one is safe and comfortable, we really need to do the other to be truly open about everything! (One of the few rules I remember from my dad - when face with two actions, one that's easy and one that's hard - the one that's hard is almost always the right thing to do)

[phunhog]

I agree everything we do should be on the up and up and not try to hide anything.  However you bring up an interesting point regarding homebrewers "fronting" as pro brewers.   I am one of those "rogue" brewers.  I started donating beer several years ago under my "label" once I saw that my local brew club was doing the same thing. Obviously this was before passage of the new laws.....ignorance is/was bliss.  I still don't see why I can't continue to do the same thing...of course with the new labeling laws in place.   Most guys have a name for their brewery.....I just took it a step farther with an actual logo and t-shirts/mugs/stickers for sale.   When I pour at charity events people want to know where they can find my beer.  Of course I am honest and tell them that my beer is homebrewed and not for sale, and the only place they can find it is local charity events.  I can't imagine how the ABC would/could have any legal opinion of what donated homebrew can or can't be called.  I am interested in how you see it Drew....

[Malticulous]

Too bad this could not be imposed by the retraction of laws. We don't need any more.

[dbeechum]

The ABC would dimly consider the presentation of homebrewed beer with commercial imagery and no labelling as homebrew as a fraudulent activity rife with consumer liability issues. Additionally, the donation of the beer until Jan 1 of this year would have been prohibited. Taxation, licensing, etc.. all the stuff that makes a regulatory agency a regulatory agency.

Had an enforcement agent come across such a presentation, they would have probably shut down that part of service and fined the licensee (severely for allowing unlicensed alcohol to be served) and had a severe talking with the server for pouring unlicensed alcohol. Additionally, future fests for the licensee would be in question due to the violation.

It's important enough to them that in AB-2609 it's stated that there must be signage at the fest entrance that homebrew is unregulated, potentially hazardous, etc. Additionally, homebrew itself must be labelled clearly that way. Even better, if a fest has both commercial and homebrewed beer then homebrew has to be physically separated with a barricade and physical monitoring and additional signage from any commercial beer.

The ABC has legal authority on how homebrew is presented and labelled and offered to the public since they regulate all alcohol in the state including defining what the boundaries are of the exemption granted by law to homebrewing. Hence their ruling on shop educational sessions. (And I know, several shops have been visited by ABC agents to have that "good" word delivered to them)

Part of why I'm spreading the word about this bill and what's allowed is that we need to have everyone on the same page and best behavior to diffuse arguments about homebrewing as a refuge for scofflaws and scoundrels for when we tackle the next parts. Incidentally, this view in nothing new - back in the 70's when the homebrewing legalization bill was written, there was a competing bill, the Conable Bill, that would have required homebrewers to register with the ATF, because the agency was worried that homebrewing would be used as a legal cover for moonshining.

[ynotbrusum]

A few years back Wisconsin cracked down at homebrews served at beerfests.  They changed the law but the homebrew is still segregated from the commercial serving area as a "homebrew island".  Illinois did a similar measure in 2013, I believe, but most beer feasts in IL don't serve homebrew, because of the licensing required here.  But they can at least now hold competitions legally, as long as the judges are affiliated with BJCP or similar organization:

http://beerpulse.com/2013/07/illinois-governor-signs-homebrew-bill-allowing-competition-entry-sharing-and-more-772/

Crazy rules but like Drew said - we have to comply or risk being considered the same as outlaw moonshiners....

[phunhog]

You know I don't know or have heard of anyone equating homebrew/homebrewing with moonshining, scofflaws, or scoundrels.  This is not the 1930's nor is it Alabama.  Look at both popular opinion and recent actions by the CA legislation.  AB 1425 and AB 2609 passed without a single "nay" vote and only one "neo-prohibition" group registered as against either legislation.   Also remember that the ABC does not make regulations, only the legislation can do that, they only enforce existing regulations.  So I am a little perplexed by who added/approved amendments such as seperating homebrew from commercial.   It seems like we could get a lot more than we asked for from a practical political perspective for and hopefully these will be addressed in the future.
As a side note I wonder how many non profit homebrew organizations/clubs will pop up and really use this new law.  It would seem that it could really open up some doors such as organizing a beer festival to raise funds for the club.

[dbeechum]

You need to talk with more enforcement folks! Most think we're a-okay. Some think homebrewing is a cousin of moonshining and some feel like the whole thing should be illegal. (Also, Alcohol Justice will comment on any bill dealing with alcohol)

I imagine the source of the amendments was the ABC and law enforcement working with various legislators.

This was an easy bill to get passed because it's still a special case thing. If the ABC sees a lot of profit driven fests appearing I imagine they'll push back on the licensing aspect. I also suspect the sheer mechanical work of the process (finding a location, getting leo approval, getting the license, etc) will keep it from becoming a giant thing.

Now, the next part - the making it possible for homebrew clubs to meet/compete/etc in a licensed establishment is going to be the really fun one and I would expect more resistance to that effort. The concerns about confusion, potential sales and enforcement of separation are going to be even more heightened.

[BeverageBob]

That's it! I'm opening a Speak Easy! 

[phunhog]

You need to talk with more enforcement folks! Most think we're a-okay. Some think homebrewing is a cousin of moonshining and some feel like the whole thing should be illegal. (Also, Alcohol Justice will comment on any bill dealing with alcohol)

I imagine the source of the amendments was the ABC and law enforcement working with various legislators.

This was an easy bill to get passed because it's still a special case thing. If the ABC sees a lot of profit driven fests appearing I imagine they'll push back on the licensing aspect. I also suspect the sheer mechanical work of the process (finding a location, getting leo approval, getting the license, etc) will keep it from becoming a giant thing.

Now, the next part - the making it possible for homebrew clubs to meet/compete/etc in a licensed establishment is going to be the really fun one and I would expect more resistance to that effort. The concerns about confusion, potential sales and enforcement of separation are going to be even more heightened.

Yeah I was thinking of smaller events 200-300 people max.  ABC issues one day permits for alcohol sales to non profits all the time for special events.
So moving further down the road why does the ABC have a concern on where a homebrew club meets?   My club meets in the back of a local brewery.  I am trying to rack my brain thinking of any potential issues that could occur and can't think of any.  IF anything I would think that they would want it in an establishment that regulates alcohol vs. someplace that doesn't.