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Author Topic: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout  (Read 6789 times)

Offline mchrispen

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 11:05:33 am »
Quote
How low of of pH is too low?  Is it an extremely narrow window?


Like many brewers here, I like a target of 5.5-5.6 for dark roasty porters or stouts. I would not want to fall much below 5.4 and would consider that too low. I also use RO water, and some baking soda to raise the alkalinity enough to fall close to 5.6. The little sodium that adds seems beneficial to the roast character.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 12:09:30 pm »
Quote
How low of of pH is too low?  Is it an extremely narrow window?


Like many brewers here, I like a target of 5.5-5.6 for dark roasty porters or stouts. I would not want to fall much below 5.4 and would consider that too low. I also use RO water, and some baking soda to raise the alkalinity enough to fall close to 5.6. The little sodium that adds seems beneficial to the roast character.
I don't use RO per se, but I have a very soft well, and I do the same thing. Any base water that is low in sodium is well suited for using baking soda to raise alkalinity. I do like a small amount of sodium in my malt-forward beers.
Eric B.

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Offline scottNU

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 12:15:14 pm »
Ok, understood.  Thanks!

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 12:16:48 pm »
Quote
How low of of pH is too low?  Is it an extremely narrow window?


Like many brewers here, I like a target of 5.5-5.6 for dark roasty porters or stouts. I would not want to fall much below 5.4 and would consider that too low. I also use RO water, and some baking soda to raise the alkalinity enough to fall close to 5.6. The little sodium that adds seems beneficial to the roast character.

+1
Jon H.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 01:55:44 pm »
Those that read the article on London water a few months ago, saw that the water in central London had a somewhat high sodium content through some its history. The porter breweries were reputed to make the most tasty beers for the style, even when compared to other porters from around the world. Having brewed that brown porter recipe that I created for the article and having brewed it with the 'London Porter' water profile, I can attest that the 110 ppm sodium content is not detrimental to the beer. If anything, I would say that you would want at least 50 ppm sodium in a porter to help round the flavor. For that reason, using baking soda is well suited to dark beer brewing.

Another consideration is that since you only add baking soda to the mashing water, the high sodium content that might be shown from the baking soda addition will be diluted when you add the sparging water. In the free version of Bru'n Water, you would have to perform that calculation by yourself. But in the supporter's version, the diluted ion concentrations that are produced in the kettle are shown automatically.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2014, 02:07:54 pm »
Martin,

Can you use baking soda to adjust in finished beer? seems like it should work but if there is an expert around, check with the expert.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 08:10:59 pm »
Martin,

Can you use baking soda to adjust in finished beer? seems like it should work but if there is an expert around, check with the expert.

well in an attempt to Answer My Own Question I added a dusting of baking soda to my glass of stout I recently brewed with late mash addition and RO water. It had a slightly tart quality to start with and the baking soda knocked it out.

Going back to my bru'n water sheet for that brew day I added the dark grains in and balanced the resulting pH drop with baking soda and came up with 6 grams total for 10 gallons. I think I will ad 3 grams of baking soda to each keg as it was noticeably better.
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Offline leejoreilly

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 06:57:25 am »
Martin,

Can you use baking soda to adjust in finished beer? seems like it should work but if there is an expert around, check with the expert.

well in an attempt to Answer My Own Question I added a dusting of baking soda to my glass of stout I recently brewed with late mash addition and RO water. It had a slightly tart quality to start with and the baking soda knocked it out.

Going back to my bru'n water sheet for that brew day I added the dark grains in and balanced the resulting pH drop with baking soda and came up with 6 grams total for 10 gallons. I think I will ad 3 grams of baking soda to each keg as it was noticeably better.

I brewed a Pale Ale six weeks or so ago, using a "tried and true" recipe, but with my first ever water additions. It turned out to have a bit of a sharp tang that I figured was from the lactic acid I had added (2.9ml in the mash and 0.8 in the sparge). I experimented with a couple of 8 oz pours dosed with a tiny measured bit of baking soda, and it seemed to help. I ended up putting 5 grams of baking soda in the (slightly less than) 5 gallons of Pale. I also added some dry hopping, since the hops aroma/flavor seemed to be diminished, too. While the beer isn't quite as tasty as previous versions, it's pretty good and certainly more enjoyable than it was originally.

I'm going to be more aware of the effects of lactic in the future. And I need to read that Water book...


Offline mabrungard

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 06:59:56 am »
Yes as you already found, post fermentation pH adjustment is fine. It is primarily affecting taste.

The same thing can be performed in any beer...either raising or lowering the beer pH to meet taste expectations.
Martin B
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Offline denny

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2014, 09:24:35 am »
Yes as you already found, post fermentation pH adjustment is fine. It is primarily affecting taste.

The same thing can be performed in any beer...either raising or lowering the beer pH to meet taste expectations.

This is really cool to think about.  What a huge change in procedures from when I started brewing nearly 17 years ago.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2014, 10:41:34 am »
Yes as you already found, post fermentation pH adjustment is fine. It is primarily affecting taste.

The same thing can be performed in any beer...either raising or lowering the beer pH to meet taste expectations.

This is really cool to think about.  What a huge change in procedures from when I started brewing nearly 17 years ago.

it is, and it's a great way to illustrate the effect. I might work out a presentation for my brew club actually. I dosed my stout with so little and had my wife taste the two samples. She picked out the doctored one right away. said it was less bitter and tasted a little 'sweeter'
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2014, 11:01:08 am »

This is really cool to think about.  What a huge change in procedures from when I started brewing nearly 17 years ago.

+1.  Sure is. Amazing how far things have come.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2014, 12:15:33 pm »
Yes as you already found, post fermentation pH adjustment is fine. It is primarily affecting taste.

The same thing can be performed in any beer...either raising or lowering the beer pH to meet taste expectations.

This is really cool to think about.  What a huge change in procedures from when I started brewing nearly 17 years ago.

it is, and it's a great way to illustrate the effect. I might work out a presentation for my brew club actually. I dosed my stout with so little and had my wife taste the two samples. She picked out the doctored one right away. said it was less bitter and tasted a little 'sweeter'

How about writing it up on experimentalbrew.com?  You could be an IGOR!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2014, 12:34:46 pm »
Yes as you already found, post fermentation pH adjustment is fine. It is primarily affecting taste.

The same thing can be performed in any beer...either raising or lowering the beer pH to meet taste expectations.

This is really cool to think about.  What a huge change in procedures from when I started brewing nearly 17 years ago.

it is, and it's a great way to illustrate the effect. I might work out a presentation for my brew club actually. I dosed my stout with so little and had my wife taste the two samples. She picked out the doctored one right away. said it was less bitter and tasted a little 'sweeter'

How about writing it up on experimentalbrew.com?  You could be an IGOR!

sure! wait, you mean I'm not already an IGOR?
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline denny

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Re: Base Malt Mash Water Chemistry for Imperial Stout
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 02:48:25 pm »
sure! wait, you mean I'm not already an IGOR?

Well yeah, you are.  We gotta come up with some ay to acknowledge that!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell