Author Topic: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style  (Read 8060 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 03:31:01 PM »
Has anyone bothered to read the winning recipes that were published in the September/October issue of Zymurgy?  The recipe for the winning English Pale Ale is out of style for category 8C.

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Offline a10t2

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 04:25:06 PM »
Maybe this is going to be competitive amateur brewing's doping scandal… They could be stripped of their medals and barred from competition.
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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 06:00:16 PM »
Is there a particular reason that it matters that category 8 was "out of style?"

Almost all of the ales that I brew fall into category 8; therefore, it is a category in which I am very knowledgable.  I have yet to see a British bitter recipe that contains 21% crystal malt.   

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 06:04:18 PM »
I thought the rule of thumb is that judges (usually) like the beer better if it's brewed at the higher end of the style's range.

However, that beer exceeded that gravity range for the style in which it was entered by five gravity points. 

Offline denny

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2014, 06:20:31 PM »
I thought the rule of thumb is that judges (usually) like the beer better if it's brewed at the higher end of the style's range.

However, that beer exceeded that gravity range for the style in which it was entered by five gravity points.

Could you detect that?  This smacks of sour grapes...
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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2014, 06:21:09 PM »
Yes, it of was entered in the wrong subcategory/. It was judged with all of the category 8 beers, and it would not be a stretch to say that there were 8Cs on the mini-BoS for cat. 8. So it went up against ESB type beers there and won. Maybe there were even stronger beers on the mini-Bos table. It won.

There were some others that had me raise an eyebrow due to ingredienst or procedure, but they won.

Every year, same procedure.

However, if the judges were doing their jobs, the ESBs were judged as ESBs, not Special Bitters. That beer may have scored lower if judged as an ESB.  One thing that I have noticed is that ESBs rarely win the category. 

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2014, 06:49:52 PM »
Could you detect that?  This smacks of sour grapes...

I did not enter the National Homebrew Contest; therefore, it is not sour grapes.  There have been many times where I brewed an outstanding beer that I could have entered into a competition except for the fact that the beer exceeded the gravity range for the style.  It's called personal integrity.

BJCP judges are working with what they have been told about a beer.  An ESB that is entered as a Special Bitter is going be judged as a Special Bitter.  However, an ESB is a bigger all-around beer.  It's no small secret that the biggest well-made beer within a subcategory almost always wins. This advantage is amplified in category 8 where two out of three subcategories are lower than standard American gravity beer styles.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:00:24 PM by S. cerevisiae »

Offline tommymorris

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Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2014, 07:04:16 PM »
Could you detect that?  This smacks of sour grapes...
There have been many times where I brewed an outstanding beer that I could have entered into a competition except for the fact that the beer exceeded the gravity range for the style.  It's called personal integrity.

S., I don't question your personal integrity or the NHC winner's. But, I don't think the gravity numbers in the BJCP style guidelines are hard limits. I think those gravity numbers are just guidelines. If a brewer has been entering beers in a category across multiple contests he/she gets to know what the judges expect from a beer in that category. A brewer who wants to win has to adjust.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2014, 08:03:31 PM »
Could you detect that?  This smacks of sour grapes...

I did not enter the National Homebrew Contest; therefore, it is not sour grapes.  There have been many times where I brewed an outstanding beer that I could have entered into a competition except for the fact that the beer exceeded the gravity range for the style.  It's called personal integrity.

BJCP judges are working with what they have been told about a beer.  An ESB that is entered as a Special Bitter is going be judged as a Special Bitter.  However, an ESB is a bigger all-around beer.  It's no small secret that the biggest well-made beer within a subcategory almost always wins. This advantage is amplified in category 8 where two out of three subcategories are lower than standard American gravity beer styles.

I don't think Denny was referring to not winning, but perhaps a problem with the BJCP, since we all know you recently had a melt down and resigned, including demanding that Gordon Strong strike all of your info from BJCP records. That might give one a clue that someone in that frame of mind could possibly sift through minor details in search of a tiny fault to point out.

I have no doubt that is not the case here, you're probably just trying to be helpful and ended up being misunderstood.




Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2014, 08:16:22 PM »
Having had fresh Fuller's ESB on cask at the Mawson's Arms, I would say that most BJCP judges would knock it down as being too thin and not enough caramel flavor and not enough hops.

The stuff we get in bottles is a higher OG recipe than cask. By the time it usually gets here it is a sweet caramel mess due to oxidation. That is what most will judge a beer against.

Ron Pattinson claims that John Keeling showed him a WBC score sheet that said the Fuller's ESB he had entered was not to style, and that is not a BJCP competition.
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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2014, 09:30:42 PM »
I don't think Denny was referring to not winning, but perhaps a problem with the BJCP, since we all know you recently had a melt down and resigned, including demanding that Gordon Strong strike all of your info from BJCP records.

I do not know where you obtained that information, but I never sent a message to Gordon demanding him to remove my information from the BJCP database.  Demand is a very strong word that has legal ramifications.
 Trust me, if I had demanded to have my information removed from the BJCP database, the demand would have been sent by my attorney. 

Offline denny

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2014, 09:32:32 PM »
Ron Pattinson claims that John Keeling showed him a WBC score sheet that said the Fuller's ESB he had entered was not to style, and that is not a BJCP competition.

Same thing happened to SNPA at GABF a few years ago.
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Offline dkfick

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2014, 11:03:29 PM »
I don't think Denny was referring to not winning, but perhaps a problem with the BJCP, since we all know you recently had a melt down and resigned, including demanding that Gordon Strong strike all of your info from BJCP records.

I do not know where you obtained that information, but I never sent a message to Gordon demanding him to remove my information from the BJCP database.  Demand is a very strong word that has legal ramifications.
 Trust me, if I had demanded to have my information removed from the BJCP database, the demand would have been sent by my attorney.
Sometimes I just read the crazy stuff you post and I'm just left scratching my head at how one could fly so far off the deep end....
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2014, 11:16:20 PM »
I don't think Denny was referring to not winning, but perhaps a problem with the BJCP, since we all know you recently had a melt down and resigned, including demanding that Gordon Strong strike all of your info from BJCP records.

I do not know where you obtained that information, but I never sent a message to Gordon demanding him to remove my information from the BJCP database.  Demand is a very strong word that has legal ramifications.
 Trust me, if I had demanded to have my information removed from the BJCP database, the demand would have been sent by my attorney.

I obtained the information from you, on your thread, this forum,  that you posted after you got your score from your tasting exam, which the whole thread has been deleted now. I don't care enough to invent it.

I guess if I were to speak bluntly, I'm struggling to find the value in the point of this. An NHC winner's recipe is one brix too high so... burn down the BJCP? Yank his medal for not complying with the style guidelines? Kudos for your eagle eye on the details, but what do you propose as a fix?

Offline Stevie

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2014, 11:34:29 PM »
This thread is amazing. I searched for the aforementioned bjcp thread and couldn't find it. That was classic too. Stay classy guys.