[leejoreilly]

First, let me note that I understand where S cerev is coming from; I'm an engineer by trade and personality (if you Google "anal personality" my picture comes up), so I also tend to focus on "the numbers". But I see beer evaluation as an aesthetic process, not a scientific one; the important point is how the beer is perceived, not what it's numbers are. The Guidelines are just that - guidelines that should be taken as a whole to describe a beer. I get to designate my beers' styles as I see fit, even if the numbers aren't exactly "right". And I see that as an issue of judgment rather than integrity.

I have a Pale Ale that I've been brewing for years now. It's a bit darker and higher in gravity than the guidelines say it "should" be. But it's my beer, and I choose to call it a Pale Ale even if it's closer to some other style. If I entered it in a competition as a PA, I'd expect it might be dinged for these excesses, but then again, maybe not. Maybe the judges would perceive it to be a solid PA, to their tastes. Just because the numbers say it's gravity is too high doesn't mean that it TASTES like it's too high. Aesthetic judgment...

[HoosierBrew]

First, let me note that I understand where S cerev is coming from; I'm an engineer by trade and personality (if you Google "anal personality" my picture comes up), so I also tend to focus on "the numbers". But I see beer evaluation as an aesthetic process, not a scientific one; the important point is how the beer is perceived, not what it's numbers are. The Guidelines are just that - guidelines that should be taken as a whole to describe a beer. I get to designate my beers' styles as I see fit, even if the numbers aren't exactly "right". And I see that as an issue of judgment rather than integrity.

I have a Pale Ale that I've been brewing for years now. It's a bit darker and higher in gravity than the guidelines say it "should" be. But it's my beer, and I choose to call it a Pale Ale even if it's closer to some other style. If I entered it in a competition as a PA, I'd expect it might be dinged for these excesses, but then again, maybe not. Maybe the judges would perceive it to be a solid PA, to their tastes. Just because the numbers say it's gravity is too high doesn't mean that it TASTES like it's too high. Aesthetic judgment...

This is how I feel as well. I work in a detail intensive field as well and have a pretty OCD approach to my brewing. I respect styles and brewing to style, but I also know that any number of factors have an effect on how a beer is perceived, not just OG. Water chemistry alone can totally change the perception of the same recipe. On the occasion I enter a comp, I enter the beer in the category that it tastes most like, not by using a rigid OG test. And the vast majority of the time the beer falls within the OG range. But as said, there is also a risk in entering a beer too big for style, and it is the judges job to tell me if my beer is within style. Playing the integrity card is lame and ridiculous.

[hopfenundmalz]

....Having integrity means that one plays by the rules, even it if puts one at a disadvantage.  Purposely entering a bigger beer in a smaller beer category is not playing by the rules. 

  It is not "cheating" to enter a beer in a category where you feel it will be perceived best.

What comes to mind is something that was done by a couple of repeat Ninkasi winners. I know because ive heard them say it in interviews. Blending.

So if being 5 pts to high in OG is a problem, imagine back when there were no limits, entering 60+ beers and many of those were blended to present the best contender. What would the recipe for that look like? Clearly, its all about what is in the judges glass.
[/quote]

Please show me where blending or post adjustment is called out in the rules as being verboten. Gordon posted his recipe for a blended beer, the only thing ambiguous thing about it was "blend to taste".

There are some beers that are best made by blending. Gueuze comes to mind. Commercial brewers do it all of the time, to reduce production variation, or to make a new beer. Dogfish Head blends beers to make Burton Baton. Bells blends Expedition and Double ream stout, sticks it into a barrel, and the result is Black Note. Hey barrels are post adjustment, aren't they? A blend of your beer, residual booze you didn't make left in the barrel, and wood falovors.

Recently there have been discussion here on adjusting the pH of the finished beer to enhance the taste. Is that adjustment forbidden? Show me where it is stated that you can't do that before entering.

My $0.02 is at least specify what you did in the recipe. If it won, it won.

Hey, it is just beer, I will be picking some hops, enjoying the day, and going to a friends house to have some cask ale. Enjoy your Labor Day weekend everybody.

[klickitat jim]

One final observation. The gold medal recipe OG/FG calculates out to 4.3% ABV, and the top of the scale in the guidelines is 4.6%. Not exactly what I would call much of a problem.

This has really run its course I think. Yikes!

[S. cerevisiae]

In this case, we are not looking at two completely different beer styles.  Category 8C is basically a bigger version of 8B.  Any beer that fits 8B basically fits 8C from a sensory point of view.  The main differentiator between the subcategories is gravity; therefore, technically, the beer should have been entered as an ESB, not a Special Bitter.   

"History: Strong bitters can be seen as a higher-gravity version of best bitters (although not necessarily “more premium” since best bitters are traditionally the brewer’s finest product). Since beer is sold by strength in the UK, these beers often have some alcohol flavor (perhaps to let the consumer know they are getting their due). In England today, “ESB” is a brand unique to Fullers; in America, the name has been co-opted to describe a malty, bitter, reddish, standard-strength (for the US) English-type ale. Hopping can be English or a combination of English and American."

With that said, ESB is a difficult subcategory in which to win category 8.   I think that the problem stems from a lack of quality calibration standards.  I am lucky in that the Oliver Breweries/Pratt Street Ale House still brews traditional British ale. The brewery side of this brewpub was originally built by Alan Pugsley.  The pub side of the brewpub was originally called the Wharf Rat.  It's one of the few places in America where one can order an authentic British mild that was brewed by a British brewmaster in a British-designed brewhouse.  The best milds are brewed in May in support of CAMRA's "Mild May" campaign.  The brewmaster at Oliver Breweries is a British bloke named Steve Jones.    If NHC ends up being held in Baltimore, the Pratt Street Ale House is within walking distance of the Baltimore Convention Center for those who like British-style ales and American-style ales with a British twist.

Here's a time lapse video of a batch of Iron Man Pale Ale fermenting in modern Yorkshire-style open fermentation vessel (notice the Yorkshire-style shower head looking device that is used to fill the fermentation vessel):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGIThQ7w0ls&feature=youtu.be

By the way, that's a Ringwood fermentation.  Fermentation is complete in three days.

[chumley]

Ringwood yeast rocks!  And that is all I have to say...

[macbrews]

This whole discussion is predicated on the assumption that the beer brewed hit all of the parameters in the recipe.  If you can say that every time you have brewed a beer it ended up in the bottle exactly like it was on paper, my hat is off to you.  I certainly can't say that.

I bet, as others have said, it was a mighty fine beer that tasted like an 8B.  Congrats to the winner!

[tonyp]

While I can absolutely understand the OP's argument, and somewhat agree with it, I also believe that telling entrants "If your beer is X points out of the style's range it will be penalized or disqualified" would just encourage people to be deceitful about it.

I've never felt the need to enter my beer in a competition so I really have no idea how the judges work this stuff out. Do they get out a hydrometer and check the gravity or just go by whatever the entrant puts on the entry form? Do they check the SRM against a color chart?

[Joe T]

Category 8b goes up to 1.048 OG. 8c is above 1.048. There's plenty of overlap on IBU and SRM so gravity is clearly what sets these categories apart.
Cheating or a lack of integrity would depend on the intent of the entrant. The only logical reason I can think of for entering a bigger beer would be a rebrew that ended up bigger, since this is for the second round. I like to assume people generally have good intentions (the first time, anyway- burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me) so let's go with that.
Either way, it tasted better than all other beers entered in 8a,b, and c so it won. Congrats to the winning brewer.

[Thirsty_Monk]

Category 8b goes up to 1.048 OG. 8c is above 1.048. There's plenty of overlap on IBU and SRM so gravity is clearly what sets these categories apart.
Cheating or a lack of integrity would depend on the intent of the entrant. The only logical reason I can think of for entering a bigger beer would be a rebrew that ended up bigger, since this is for the second round. I like to assume people generally have good intentions (the first time, anyway- burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me) so let's go with that.
Either way, it tasted better than all other beers entered in 8a,b, and c so it won. Congrats to the winning brewer.

No way to find out OG in finished beer.

[denny]

I've never felt the need to enter my beer in a competition so I really have no idea how the judges work this stuff out. Do they get out a hydrometer and check the gravity or just go by whatever the entrant puts on the entry form? Do they check the SRM against a color chart?

There is no gravity check (you couldn't check OG anyway) and I have never seen any comp where you had to prpovide that info.  If a judge checks color, it's a personal check, not a requirement.  And it isn't the most stringent check.

Look, this is a hobby competition for amateurs.  I just don't see what the big deal is.

[klickitat jim]

Here's a challenge. Look up the stats for Special Bitter. Explain how a brewer could hit the high end of the ABV without going above the high end of OG or below the low end of FG.

[a10t2]

Here's a challenge. Look up the stats for Special Bitter. Explain how a brewer could hit the high end of the ABV without going above the high end of OG or below the low end of FG.

OG 1.046, FG 1.011? That's ~4.6% ABV.

OG: 1.040 – 1.048
FG: 1.008 – 1.012
ABV: 3.8 – 4.6%

[klickitat jim]

Sure enough. I ran it yesterday on my app and it showed 4.3% using the top OG and bottom FG. I must have had something wrong.

[santoch]

Sure enough. I ran it yesterday on my app and it showed 4.3% using the top OG and bottom FG. I must have had something wrong.

That's just your eyes playing tricks on ya, Jim,  Y O F!

;-)

S