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Author Topic: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style  (Read 11545 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2014, 04:51:54 pm »
Sure enough. I ran it yesterday on my app and it showed 4.3% using the top OG and bottom FG. I must have had something wrong.

That's just your eyes playing tricks on ya, Jim,  Y O F!

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S

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Offline Joe T

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2014, 05:17:48 pm »

Category 8b goes up to 1.048 OG. 8c is above 1.048. There's plenty of overlap on IBU and SRM so gravity is clearly what sets these categories apart.
Cheating or a lack of integrity would depend on the intent of the entrant. The only logical reason I can think of for entering a bigger beer would be a rebrew that ended up bigger, since this is for the second round. I like to assume people generally have good intentions (the first time, anyway- burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me) so let's go with that.
Either way, it tasted better than all other beers entered in 8a,b, and c so it won. Congrats to the winning brewer.


No way to find out OG in finished beer.

Beersmith has a tool for that:
"Backing Out the Original Gravity of a Finished Beer

This calculation, though rarely used, can actually estimate the original gravity of the beer using a final gravity measurement taken with both a refractometer and hydrometer. It is useful if you forgot to measure the original gravity up front. o Select "Fermenting wort gravity" as the calculation o Enter the refractometer reading for the finished beer (at room temperature - cool the sample before measuring) o Enter the hydrometer reading for the finished beer o The estimated original gravity will be displayed under "Corrected gravity""

I wasn't suggesting that judges calculate OG anyway. My point was really more focused on what I see as the core issue of the OP's point for this thread: the INTENT of the brewer who entered the beer.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2014, 05:59:54 pm »

Category 8b goes up to 1.048 OG. 8c is above 1.048. There's plenty of overlap on IBU and SRM so gravity is clearly what sets these categories apart.
Cheating or a lack of integrity would depend on the intent of the entrant. The only logical reason I can think of for entering a bigger beer would be a rebrew that ended up bigger, since this is for the second round. I like to assume people generally have good intentions (the first time, anyway- burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me) so let's go with that.
Either way, it tasted better than all other beers entered in 8a,b, and c so it won. Congrats to the winning brewer.


No way to find out OG in finished beer.

Beersmith has a tool for that:
"Backing Out the Original Gravity of a Finished Beer

This calculation, though rarely used, can actually estimate the original gravity of the beer using a final gravity measurement taken with both a refractometer and hydrometer. It is useful if you forgot to measure the original gravity up front. o Select "Fermenting wort gravity" as the calculation o Enter the refractometer reading for the finished beer (at room temperature - cool the sample before measuring) o Enter the hydrometer reading for the finished beer o The estimated original gravity will be displayed under "Corrected gravity""

I wasn't suggesting that judges calculate OG anyway. My point was really more focused on what I see as the core issue of the OP's point for this thread: the INTENT of the brewer who entered the beer.

A brewery with an expensive Alton Parr beer analyser can give you the ABV, FG, and OG from finished beer. That was done for some of my beers way back when.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2014, 09:30:27 am »
There are lots of very good points brought on both sides of this argument and if there is a practical way to implement changes to improve fairness in judging then all the major competition organizers would likely be open to adopting those changes. It is known that in competitions at both the commercial and hobby level that beers are slid by the entrant into categories where they will be the biggest in the class, even where they are out of style at the targeted style. We don't know the intent of the entrant in this particular case. The brewer may have made an honest decision that the beer aesthetically resembled an 8B beer even if it had a higher OG than appropriate for the style. (Additionally, do we know whether the published recipes are adjusted for efficiency that may not have resembled the brewer's personal version of the recipe?)

Judging is an inherently imperfect process and it is unreasonable to expect competitions to subject each beer to testing to ensure complicity with the style guidelines. Competitions, even large commercial competitions, do not have the equipment, time, or staff to test each beer. That is why competitions rely upon trained judges to apply the guidelines and assess the beers aesthetically. The judges are not perfect, sometimes the decision is wrong, but we have agreed to allow them to make the call.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2014, 09:51:13 am »
The answer, for the OP, is to try again at the tasting exam and become a judge. If you believe that you would have accurately judged that beer as out of style in 8B you could have explained this to the other judges sitting your flight and maybe, just maybe improve the skills and knowledge of the BJCP judging corp a little bit to help avoid these situations in the future. If there is a bias in judging towards the biggest the only way to fix that is to call it out. just like any bias, until people start standing up and calling it out every time they see it nothing will change.

so kudos to you S. Cerv for calling this out but it's even better to do it at the moment than after the fact. I get fed up all the time with notes on comp beers that clearly indicate the judge does not know what they are talking about and that's why I am trying to become a judge myself. So that, at least when I am judging a beer I will be able to do my best to pick the best beer TO STYLE on the table and to help the other judges do the same.

you're smart, perceptive, and driven. Don't let fear of failure stop you from actually doing something to make this process better.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2014, 10:41:45 am »
There is NO rule that says you cannot enter a beer in a certain category.  It is 100% within the "rules" to ENTER a beer in any category you want - even if it is outside the "guidelines."  It is absolutely "legal" to enter a pilsner as a stout.

This is the crux of the issue.

If there's someone who believes the rules should be changed, they should put forth a cogent argument for discussion.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2014, 12:14:28 pm »
This one on the main page is over the BJCP guidelines by .02 o;)http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/ag24-oktoberfest/

It happens.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 05:27:51 pm by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2014, 12:27:44 pm »
There is NO rule that says you cannot enter a beer in a certain category.  It is 100% within the "rules" to ENTER a beer in any category you want - even if it is outside the "guidelines."  It is absolutely "legal" to enter a pilsner as a stout.

This is the crux of the issue.

If there's someone who believes the rules should be changed, they should put forth a cogent argument for discussion.



Try this for an example:  putting a Surly Bitter Brewer ale against a Tetley's Smoothflow.  I prefer the Surly, as a beer, generally, and would bet it is judged superior as a beer by most folks, but even Todd the brewer would acknowledge that it is not to style, despite the ABV being close to or in the correct range.  Should that win a competition for a bitter where style guidelines are used?  No.  I'm no style Nazi, but the argument for compliance with style guidelines boils down at some point to attempting in good faith to properly classify the beer when submitted, so it can be evaluated against the appropriate style guidelines and the other properly classified entrants.  Should my reduction boiled 60 Schilling Scottish Ale be forced to compete (within the 60 Schilling subcategory) with a 70 Schilling Scottish Ale improperly entered as a 60; if so, what about a 90 Schilling?

That said, I don't put it on the judges to catch something as minimally deviant as a higher than permitted ABV on a relatively low alcohol beer.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:29:19 pm by ynotbrusum »
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2014, 12:52:33 pm »
the attempt to properly classify a beer is good strategy for an entrant assuming the judges are doing their job. If you enter a beer that is too big/hoppy for the category it SHOULD get dinged for that. if it is still the best example on the table then it SHOULD win anyway.

I've not had the surly bitter but if it is out of style, regardless of your preference, and there is a beer that is more to style and of comparable quality the second beer should win. It's the job of the judge to learn how to separate their personal taste preferences from their experience of the beers as hand. Personal preference will come into play during a best of show judging when it is generally agreed that all the remaining competetors are equally deserving of the win based on (the perception of) compliance to the guidelines.

the numbers just don't come into it. there are errors in measurement, data entry, understanding, etc. that make it impossible to know for sure exactly what numbers a particular beer actually has.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2014, 01:05:22 pm »


the numbers just don't come into it. there are errors in measurement, data entry, understanding, etc. that make it impossible to know for sure exactly what numbers a particular beer actually has.

^This^.  Lots of potential small errors that could call the exact numbers into question. Which is why I have no qualms in entering a beer as to what it tastes most like when the OG is near the junction of 2 styles - I would never try to game the system, but if it tastes more like 'A' than 'B' to me and there is some overlap, then it's up to the judges to agree or disagree with my assessment.
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Offline denny

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2014, 01:14:32 pm »
^This^.  Lots of potential small errors that could call the exact numbers into question. Which is why I have no qualms in entering a beer as to what it tastes most like when the OG is near the junction of 2 styles - I would never try to game the system, but if it tastes more like 'A' than 'B' to me and there is some overlap, then it's up to the judges to agree or disagree with my assessment.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2014, 01:52:40 pm »
^This^.  Lots of potential small errors that could call the exact numbers into question. Which is why I have no qualms in entering a beer as to what it tastes most like when the OG is near the junction of 2 styles - I would never try to game the system, but if it tastes more like 'A' than 'B' to me and there is some overlap, then it's up to the judges to agree or disagree with my assessment.



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Offline denny

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2014, 02:26:10 pm »
Not as far as I know, but I thought the same thing!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2014, 03:20:05 pm »
Yeah, that's a pretty uncanny resemblance. Long lost brother ?    ;D
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Offline ajk

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Re: Category 8 NHC Winner was out of style
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2014, 05:45:25 pm »
I do think the guidelines are just guidelines, not rules (the new ones even state as much).

I don't think S. cerevisiae's posts are crazy. I think they're interesting and often useful.