[yso191]

I just finished helping judge the homebrew section of the Fresh Hop Ale Fest here in Yakima.  the most common flaw my table saw?  Too much crystal malt.

I learned a lot.  It was a great experience.  I am even more jazzed to get certified.

[erockrph]

I just finished helping judge the homebrew section of the Fresh Hop Ale Fest here in Yakima.  the most common flaw my table saw?  Too much crystal malt.

I learned a lot.  It was a great experience.  I am even more jazzed to get certified.

Out of curiosity, how did you determine it was specifically too much Crystal vs underattenuation or some other fault? I'm still not sold on "too much Crystal malt" being a glaring flaw on its own. Otherwise Celebration would be undrinkable from what I understand.

[jeffy]

I just finished helping judge the homebrew section of the Fresh Hop Ale Fest here in Yakima.  the most common flaw my table saw?  Too much crystal malt.

I learned a lot.  It was a great experience.  I am even more jazzed to get certified.

Out of curiosity, how did you determine it was specifically too much Crystal vs underattenuation or some other fault? I'm still not sold on "too much Crystal malt" being a glaring flaw on its own. Otherwise Celebration would be undrinkable from what I understand.

I started to ask the same thing. 
That and to comment on what a table saw has to do with judging.
I try to be cautious with my comments on score sheets, not having the recipe in front of me.  Writing "overly strong caramel flavor" may be more appropriate than "cut back on crystal malt."

[mabrungard]

In the latest issue of The New Brewer (Sept/Oct I think), Matt Cole of FatHeads Brewery mentions that significantly restricting the use of crystal malts when brewing an award-winning IPA is a must. He does have a track record of a number of IPA medals at WBC and GABF, so that advice should have some weight.

When you think about it, when brewing a hop-focused beer, keeping the malt presence down at an appropriately low level should help accentuate the hop bittering, flavor, and character. Adding a larger percentage of less fermentable sugars to your IPA wort does seem counterproductive.

Given that advice, I will have to agree that limiting the amount of crystal in a hoppy beer is a good idea. But that isn't to say that NONE is the correct answer. Adding just a touch to add flavor nuances that you CAN'T achieve with another base malt. For instance, adding a bit of a dark caramel note might call for a touch of a darker crystal.

Based on Matt's advice, I'd say that exploring the lower end of crystal percentage should be on the table for a number of beer styles.

[ajk]

Some types of oxidation can produce honey-like notes that can be perceived as caramel-like.

[HoosierBrew]

I just finally came around to the fact that, for hoppy beers, I like the drier 'West Coast' style better, with crystal limited. That's not to say I haven't had Midwest and East Coast style hoppy beers that I liked alot, but I just prefer the other approach, ie., limiting crystal to 6% or less, mashing low, and using a water profile that enhances hop character. Not saying it's better than someone else's method - just what I like.

[yso191]

I just finished helping judge the homebrew section of the Fresh Hop Ale Fest here in Yakima.  the most common flaw my table saw?  Too much crystal malt.

I learned a lot.  It was a great experience.  I am even more jazzed to get certified.

Out of curiosity, how did you determine it was specifically too much Crystal vs underattenuation or some other fault? I'm still not sold on "too much Crystal malt" being a glaring flaw on its own. Otherwise Celebration would be undrinkable from what I understand.

I will state again that this was my first experience at judging, so I'm a little shy about this, but here is why I said that:

1. The other 2 judges at the table said it.
2. The beers in question were too dark for style.  (We were judging APAs)
3. The flavor of the crystal malt dominated the hop flavor.

[klickitat jim]

Congrats on reaching Certified! Big accomplishment in a short time. Good for you!

[denny]

I just finished helping judge the homebrew section of the Fresh Hop Ale Fest here in Yakima.  the most common flaw my table saw?  Too much crystal malt.

I learned a lot.  It was a great experience.  I am even more jazzed to get certified.

Out of curiosity, how did you determine it was specifically too much Crystal vs underattenuation or some other fault? I'm still not sold on "too much Crystal malt" being a glaring flaw on its own. Otherwise Celebration would be undrinkable from what I understand.

I started to ask the same thing. 
That and to comment on what a table saw has to do with judging.
I try to be cautious with my comments on score sheets, not having the recipe in front of me.  Writing "overly strong caramel flavor" may be more appropriate than "cut back on crystal malt."

I third that.  I never comment on what's in the beer unless the entrant has specified something.  Harkens back to when a judge told me I had too much roasted malt in an alt and I hadn't used any.

[denny]

In the latest issue of The New Brewer (Sept/Oct I think), Matt Cole of FatHeads Brewery mentions that significantly restricting the use of crystal malts when brewing an award-winning IPA is a must. He does have a track record of a number of IPA medals at WBC and GABF, so that advice should have some weight.

OTOH, John Maier, who has won more than a few medals, uses crystal liberally.  I just don't think you can look at isolated examples and say it should be one way or the other.

[denny]

I will state again that this was my first experience at judging, so I'm a little shy about this, but here is why I said that:

1. The other 2 judges at the table said it.
2. The beers in question were too dark for style.  (We were judging APAs)
3. The flavor of the crystal malt dominated the hop flavor.

1. They were poor examples for you I'm afraid
2.  Lots of other reasons, including oxidation which could also give exaggerated caramel taste
3. But are you certain it was crystal malt?

[klickitat jim]

Shouldn't be oxydation since these beers had to be brewed with 2014 hops...

[klickitat jim]

Im not certain he actually wrote too much crystal on the sheets, at least he hasnt said that yet. Certainly if thats what he tasted then he has the right to his opinion. I get the comments on wording things on a sheet though, but steve does deserve a little credit since he was the one tasting. As to a judge writing too much x, when x wasn't used... yes, judges should carefully word their comments.  But if I got a scoresheet that said, for example, too much black patent, but I used pale chocolate,  well I should be able to interpret that and move on.

[denny]

Shouldn't be oxydation since these beers had to be brewed with 2014 hops...

I still wouldn't rule it out.

[denny]

Im not certain he actually wrote too much crystal on the sheets, at least he hasnt said that yet. Certainly if thats what he tasted then he has the right to his opinion. I get the comments on wording things on a sheet though, but steve does deserve a little credit since he was the one tasting. As to a judge writing too much x, when x wasn't used... yes, judges should carefully word their comments.  But if I got a scoresheet that said, for example, too much black patent, but I used pale chocolate,  well I should be able to interpret that and move on.

Jim, I agree to a point.  But instead of saying "too much crystal malt" it's better to describe the flavor you're getting.  Unless the entrant has turned in a recipe, you're setting yourself up by guessing what's in the beer.  Believe me, I've been on on sides of that mistake.