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Author Topic: Force carb vs Keg conditioned  (Read 8982 times)

Offline quattlebaum

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2014, 06:49:09 pm »
Yes i agree Co2 is Co2 no matter what source however for some reason there is a distinct difference to me in natural verse forced carb. The mouthfeel seems to be smoother along with head retention is "always" better on my natural carb beers.  There is just something different to me. Perhaps it could be proteins, yeast and what not suspended in solution that gives me this sensation but it is definitely there.  I will say that once naturally carbed i hook it up to co2 to maintain the level and can not tell the difference as time goes on so i suppose it could be all in my head:)   

I guess the difference could be more related to the process and not the co2 itself.

Have you tried a blind triangle on beers carbed each way, say 2 months after carbonation?

No i have not. Ill have to add that one to the list :)  Or just state the obvious that many feel the same way and i should just stop being so stubborn :D

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2014, 07:12:53 pm »
I put it this way. If there's a difference I can't detect it. Unless it's a bottle conditioned vs keg forced, and you up end the bottle when pouring.

Now if you do something like priming with fruit juice, or adding Brett at bottling, there will be a noticeable difference

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2014, 12:52:11 pm »
Properly applied CO2 from a tank, allowed to fully dissolve into the beer, will be indistinguishable from any other source.

Have you tried a blind triangle on beers carbed each way, say 2 months after carbonation?

IMO, the "properly dissolved" and "two months" parts of your statements are the key.  I think that with shaking to carbonate (and perhaps force carbonating in general), people expect that they will have a perfect pour almost immediately and when they don't they compare it to bottle carbed beers that have been sitting for much longer without considering the time difference.

Naturally carbonating your beers forces a degree of patience that often gets overlooked when force carbonating.
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Online chumley

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2014, 01:31:11 pm »
Chalk me up as another who has lost too many tanks of gas to a leaky connection.  I never leave my gas on for any considerable length of time. 

I have one cylinder that I hit a freshly kegged beer with maximum pressure (after I have burped the air out of the headspace) for a brief amount of time.  I will then hit again the next day and the next, until I have achieved the right pressure at that cellar temp for that style of beer.  Then its off to the kegerator, where I serve all beers at 40°F at 10-12 psi.  I only turn the gas on the kegerator when I am drawing a beer, I shut it off afterwards.  That seems to save me on losing tanks.

Yes, the rock-n-roll method will get you big bubbles and carbonic acid bite, but as Denny pointed out, its all the same after a while.  In my experience force-carbed beers taste no different than other kegged beers in about 2-3 days after shaking in the CO2.

Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2014, 05:34:39 am »
Interesting discussion.  I hear from others that for competitions, bottle conditioned beers tend to score better.  Must be oxidation in bottling from keg that holds back so many keg drawn entries?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2014, 07:44:31 am »
Interesting discussion.  I hear from others that for competitions, bottle conditioned beers tend to score better.  Must be oxidation in bottling from keg that holds back so many keg drawn entries?

this is probably true some of the time. however I have heard judges comment that if they see a bottle has no sediment they 'look for oxidation' and often if you really look for a flavor characteristic believing that it might be there you'll find it.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2014, 07:51:55 am »
Interesting discussion.  I hear from others that for competitions, bottle conditioned beers tend to score better.  Must be oxidation in bottling from keg that holds back so many keg drawn entries?

this is probably true some of the time. however I have heard judges comment that if they see a bottle has no sediment they 'look for oxidation' and often if you really look for a flavor characteristic believing that it might be there you'll find it.

Yeah, I'd like to see that mindset change. Now and then when I do enter a comp I use the beer gun on purged bottles. There should be no difference. Judge the beer on its merits.
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Offline denny

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2014, 09:04:29 am »
Interesting discussion.  I hear from others that for competitions, bottle conditioned beers tend to score better.  Must be oxidation in bottling from keg that holds back so many keg drawn entries?

That has not been my experience.  Beers that are obviously bottled from kegs score equally with bottle conditioned beer.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2014, 11:04:46 am »
Interesting discussion.  I hear from others that for competitions, bottle conditioned beers tend to score better.  Must be oxidation in bottling from keg that holds back so many keg drawn entries?
I have had good results bottling from the keg using a beer gun.
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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2014, 04:08:41 pm »
FWIW, I have had wonderful results bottling from the keg with the beer gun.  I just had feedback from a few guys that enter comps a lot and they say that there has been a perceptible bias toward bottle conditioning in competitions, so they bottle condition for almost all competition beers they plan to enter.  Maybe they are wrong, but they say the same beer (recipe) in a bottle conditioned entry scored higher than when they entered it bottled from the keg with a beer gun.  The next question (unasked) would be if they entered both ways in a competition and they were from the same batch - that would be the true way to see if there is a bias toward bottle conditioned beers in competitions.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2014, 04:15:02 pm »
FWIW, I have had wonderful results bottling from the keg with the beer gun.  I just had feedback from a few guys that enter comps a lot and they say that there has been a perceptible bias toward bottle conditioning in competitions, so they bottle condition for almost all competition beers they plan to enter.  Maybe they are wrong, but they say the same beer (recipe) in a bottle conditioned entry scored higher than when they entered it bottled from the keg with a beer gun.  The next question (unasked) would be if they entered both ways in a competition and they were from the same batch - that would be the true way to see if there is a bias toward bottle conditioned beers in competitions.

and was it the same competition? the same judges? too many variables to pin it on the keg vs bottle conditioning.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2014, 05:18:33 pm »
FWIW, I have had wonderful results bottling from the keg with the beer gun.  I just had feedback from a few guys that enter comps a lot and they say that there has been a perceptible bias toward bottle conditioning in competitions, so they bottle condition for almost all competition beers they plan to enter.  Maybe they are wrong, but they say the same beer (recipe) in a bottle conditioned entry scored higher than when they entered it bottled from the keg with a beer gun.  The next question (unasked) would be if they entered both ways in a competition and they were from the same batch - that would be the true way to see if there is a bias toward bottle conditioned beers in competitions.
you can only enter once per subcategory in any competition I have entered.

For some beers I have been contemplating bottle conditioning, as some judges do have that bias.
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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2014, 05:36:13 am »
Agreed on the variables - same comp, different year, so yeah - different judges.  These  are some seasoned competition guys - one of whom won a gold at NHC.  One says any time he feels he wants to get a true read on a beer, he bottle conditions the entry - he just suspects that an obviously clear bottom will be treated differently - just like a higher, over-filled neck, for example.  It gets noticed and draws a comment, even if not overtly dinged; he just wants the presentation to be the best it can be and avoid some potential bias.

I see his point.

As to two entries - easily solved if two guys are involved in the brewing and one kegs and the other bottles their respective entries.  There are still plenty of other variables, such as fermentation differences, etc...but you could close the gap on those to see if the bias exists...
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 05:39:35 am by ynotbrusum »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2014, 06:59:03 am »
Agreed on the variables - same comp, different year, so yeah - different judges.  These  are some seasoned competition guys - one of whom won a gold at NHC.  One says any time he feels he wants to get a true read on a beer, he bottle conditions the entry - he just suspects that an obviously clear bottom will be treated differently - just like a higher, over-filled neck, for example.  It gets noticed and draws a comment, even if not overtly dinged; he just wants the presentation to be the best it can be and avoid some potential bias.

I see his point.

As to two entries - easily solved if two guys are involved in the brewing and one kegs and the other bottles their respective entries.  There are still plenty of other variables, such as fermentation differences, etc...but you could close the gap on those to see if the bias exists...
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Force carb vs Keg conditioned
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2014, 04:48:44 pm »
I can appreciate all views presented here. I have tried force carb in a keg. I just am not satisfied. It just seems flatter.  So, as an experiment, I just legged 5 gal of Kölsch and used a cpl oz of corn sugar to see if I get that beautiful effervescence that I enjoy.  Those who say that it make no difference may very well be correct. I'll see in a cpl weeks. I look forward to it.