Author Topic: The Ideal Batch Sparge  (Read 3458 times)

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 01:18:25 PM »
This is also the method that Kai describes in his article showing increased efficiency from equal size sparges.

In this article I'm talking about run-offs. The first comes from the mash and the 2nd comes from the 1st and possibly only sparge.

Kai

Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 01:34:59 PM »
Kai, what if you added your first sparge say 10 minutes before taking any runnings, would it have the same effect as a single batch no-sparge with a severe hit in efficiency?

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2010, 02:35:13 PM »
2 equal runoffs (1 drain, sparge, drain again) is how most everyone performs a batch sparge.

I thought the common method, and the one I use, is to mash in at your preferred grain to grist ratio, nominally 1.3 qts per pound.  After draining, you do two equal size sparges (letting each rest ~15 minutes while stirring occasionally) to collect the rest of your wort. This is also the method that Kai describes in his article showing increased efficiency from equal size sparges.

Brian

I almost never do more than a single sparge.  I get so little gain in efficiency form doing more that it isn't worth my time or effort.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2010, 02:35:55 PM »
I have never waiting 15 minutes between sparges after stiring. Are you expecting more conversion to occur? I just stir, vourlat and drain and repeat.

There's nothing to be gained from waiting.  I do what you do.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 02:37:31 PM »
Kai, what if you added your first sparge say 10 minutes before taking any runnings, would it have the same effect as a single batch no-sparge with a severe hit in efficiency?

I'm not Kai, but yes...
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline The Rabid Brewer

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 11:28:56 AM »
I think the rationale for waiting a period of time after stirring is to allow sugar diffusion...

That was my understanding as well (I think I read it in Palmer) but I haven't done a lot of experimentation.

Brian
BetterBeerBlog Homebrew Contributor.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 11:58:15 AM »
I think the rationale for waiting a period of time after stirring is to allow sugar diffusion...

That was my understanding as well (I think I read it in Palmer) but I haven't done a lot of experimentation.

Brian

I've done a lot of experimentation on it.  No difference.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1771
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 01:45:10 PM »
I think the rationale for waiting a period of time after stirring is to allow sugar diffusion...

That was my understanding as well (I think I read it in Palmer) but I haven't done a lot of experimentation.

Brian

I've done a lot of experimentation on it.  No difference.
That is the logic, but the proof is in the brewing.

Fred
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 02:06:11 PM »
I think the rationale for waiting a period of time after stirring is to allow sugar diffusion...

That was my understanding as well (I think I read it in Palmer) but I haven't done a lot of experimentation.

I think the effects of that diffusion are commonly overstated. Throughout the mash the sugars dissolve into the wort which can be measured by the mash gravity test. Once you are close to 100% conversion efficiency there can't be a significant amount of sugars in the grains or husks or otherwise the mash gravity would be much lower than expected.

When you sparge there will be some diffusion but their contribution to the overall efficiency is really small due to the small amount of wort that is actually held inside the grit particles. The majority of the wort is on the outside and lautering washes that into the BK. Technical brewing texts do mention that the actual diffusion takes some time and allowing it to happen is a reason for slow lautering. However, those books are targeted at (large) commercial brewers which do worry about efficiency changes as small as 0.5% and less. We home brewers can't even measure that accurate.

If you have low lauter efficiency due to sparging too fast (and that only applies to fly sparging) it is because of the formation of channels and not insufficient time for sugar diffusion out of the grain.

Kai

Offline nyakavt

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 10:18:49 AM »
I know this is a bit late, but I thought about running sizes and batch sparging a bit and came up with an analogy that makes sense to me.  Imagine that you have a kettle that always leaves 1 gallon behind when drained.  So if you have 200 'points' of sugar and dilute it to make 5 gallons of wort, that's a 1.040 wort.  If the kettle is drained as much as possible, 1 gallon of 1.040 wort will be left behind, or 40 points out of a possible 200 (20%).  This is analagous to a no-sparge. 

Next collect the same amount of wort in two steps, first by collecting 3 gallons then collecting 1.  For the first runnings the wort will be 1.050 gravity, leaving 1 gallon behind.  Adding 1 more gallon of water will dilute the wort to 1.025, again leaving 1 gallon behind when drained.  So here you leave behind 25 points out of a possible 200, or 12.5%.  This is a single sparge with unequal runnings.

Finally, collect the same amount of wort in two equal steps.  This is done by a 3 gallon wort which is drained, followed by adding 2 gallons and again drained.  The first draining leaves 67 points behind, which is diluted to 1.022 by the second addition, and again leaving 1 gallon behind.  Here you leave behind 22 points, or 11%.  This is a single sparge with equal runnings.   

You can see the difference between equal and unequal runnings (1.5%) is relatively small even for a large difference in runoff sizes.  The size of the 'dead space' at the bottom of the kettle can be represented in your MT by the amount of wort absorbed by the grain and any dead space, easily measured on your next batch.

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 10:45:58 AM »
I know this is a bit late, but I thought about running sizes and batch sparging a bit and came up with an analogy that makes sense to me.  Imagine that you have a kettle that always leaves 1 gallon behind when drained. 

That's exactly how I have modeled batch sparging on various occasions.

Kai

Offline nyakavt

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 11:09:33 AM »
I know this is a bit late, but I thought about running sizes and batch sparging a bit and came up with an analogy that makes sense to me.  Imagine that you have a kettle that always leaves 1 gallon behind when drained.  

That's exactly how I have modeled batch sparging on various occasions.

Kai

Yep, I've found your model to very accurately predict the into-kettle efficiency when all the starch is converted prior to the first runoff.  Since I got my refractometer inconsistencies sorted, my 3 most recent calculated efficiencies were within 1% of observed efficiency.  It's a very useful tool for recipe formulation and for seeing how much efficiency decline to expect when brewing bigger batches but collecting the same amount of wort.

Offline wilypig

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 09:18:13 AM »
I think the reason to wait is not for added conversion but to ensure the proper contact time with the mash to ensure full solubility of the remaining sugars. This will also aid in efficiency
If you can make mac and cheese from a box, you can make great beer.
Weiz Guys Homebrew club Loveland CO
Wilypig Fermentation Specialties

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 10:00:41 AM »
I think the reason to wait is not for added conversion but to ensure the proper contact time with the mash to ensure full solubility of the remaining sugars. This will also aid in efficiency

Again, I've tried a lot of different methods and I've seen no difference.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: The Ideal Batch Sparge
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2010, 10:44:46 AM »
Yep, I've found your model to very accurately predict the into-kettle efficiency when all the starch is converted prior to the first runoff.  Since I got my refractometer inconsistencies sorted, my 3 most recent calculated efficiencies were within 1% of observed efficiency.  It's a very useful tool for recipe formulation and for seeing how much efficiency decline to expect when brewing bigger batches but collecting the same amount of wort.

Thanks. It's always good to have some back-up from the observations that other brewers make.

Kai