[hopfenundmalz]

Of course when you know the strength of the liquid acid, you can use Bru'n Water to calculate the additions of a variety of acids including phosphoric.

I had not seen that recommendation from Gordon before. Given that he and I live in the land of alkaline waters, using lactic acid is not the best choice because you would probably end up using enough to create a perceptible taste 'twang' from the lactate ion. I have never heard of its effect referred to as a 'harsher bitterness'. When used at most rates, lactic acid is pretty smooth tasting to me. Think of the last Berliner Weisse that had a harsh bitterness.  I think Gordon confused his terms. In addition, all German beers are acidified with lactic acid (via acid malt) and I'm pretty sure they aren't harsh.

With all that said, if your water has more than about 150 ppm alkalinity to neutralize, you should move on to an acid like phosphoric. Phosphoric tends to be the most taste-neutral in beer.

Rolec makes a lactic bio-reactor, so that acid malt is not needed for larger breweries. I was under the impression that acid was not allowed, but if it is naturally produced it is ok. You might contact Victory Brewing and see what they say about the one they bought. Go down, and they talk about pH control.

http://www.victorybeer.com/about/expansion/

[HoosierBrew]

If you have to use phosphoric, be safe. Use gloves and goggles. I like lactic acid for this reason - even at high concentrations, its much less harsh on skin.

Cool, I can picture how to use it in the software now. When I started out with pH control, I'd already read and talked to enough brewers to realize it was just easier and safer to use lactic, so I never dug any further. Good info though.

[mabrungard]

I was under the impression that acid was not allowed, but if it is naturally produced it is ok.

Acid by any other name. Sure the purity law says that they can't add liquid acids, but as you point out, they can work around that limitation. Acid malt is another workaround.

That is interesting about the lactic bio-reactor. I'm wondering if they are just doing a continuous sour mash, like we do when producing a Berliner Weisse. They could take the mash down to a certain pH and add that to the tun when its ready.  Or are they producing a wort and souring it?

[hopfenundmalz]

I was under the impression that acid was not allowed, but if it is naturally produced it is ok.

Acid by any other name. Sure the purity law says that they can't add liquid acids, but as you point out, they can work around that limitation. Acid malt is another workaround.

That is interesting about the lactic bio-reactor. I'm wondering if they are just doing a continuous sour mash, like we do when producing a Berliner Weisse. They could take the mash down to a certain pH and add that to the tun when its ready.  Or are they producing a wort and souring it?

This thread has some information from a German brewer. Not continuous, but they have to feed it every so often, like a sourdough starter. Some of the sauergut is added to the beer to adjust.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?6245-lactic-acid

I toured Bells recently. They have a lactic acid bio-reactor, which the lactic is used to get Oarsman sour. It is about the size of their yeast propagators.

[mabrungard]

Jeff, Thanks for the link!

Hmm, Oarsman, that is a sad version of a Berliner Weisse. It is still pleasant, just not nearly tart enough.

[AmandaK]

Hmm, Oarsman, that is a sad version of a Berliner Weisse. It is still pleasant, just not nearly tart enough.

That's about as nice as I've heard Oarsman described.

[narvin]

Most homebrew supply shops sell 10% phosphoric acid.  You need to use more of it than lactic, but it's incredibly safe.  Phosphoric acid is the main ingredient (along with sugar and water) in cola.

[erockrph]

Most homebrew supply shops sell 10% phosphoric acid.  You need to use more of it than lactic, but it's incredibly safe.  Phosphoric acid is the main ingredient (along with sugar and water) in cola.

I've used both 10% phosphoric and 88% lactic with similar good results. You can pretty much use them interchangeably in soft water.

Personally, I've switched to lactic in all my beers that need acidification now that I've started to dabble in sours and Brett-aged beers. Brett can make ethyl lactate (which is responsible for the nice tropical fruit/pineapple flavors brett makes) from lactic acid, so it never hurts to have some lactate ions floating around in case I decide to add Brett to a beer.

[hopfenundmalz]

Jeff, Thanks for the link!

Hmm, Oarsman, that is a sad version of a Berliner Weisse. It is still pleasant, just not nearly tart enough.

It is more "like a Berliner" than it "is a Berliner". Some time Mrs. R finds it pleasant and likes the 4% ABV in the world of >7% beers that is parts of MI!

[Iliff Ave]

Thanks all. I picked up some lactic acid for the future.

I realized yesterday that I am not quite ready to be messing with my water. I don't have everything I need and thought I could just use my water report and bru'n water to get my ph and profile correct. I got the worst efficiency I have ever had so I obviously did something wrong or my water report is not accurate. I brewed a porter and added baking soda to get my mash ph from 5.2 to 5.4 along with some gypsum and calcium chloride. I don't have a ph meter. Jumped the gun without having the proper tools...

It is weird because my efficiency has been consistently dropping over the last 6 batches or so. I was averaging near 70% and now I am closer to 64%, getting 60% yesterday. I haven't been this frustrated in a while. I think my water might be changing or something since nothing in my process has changed?

Gonna brew a tried and true recipe next to see how my efficiency compares to past repeatable batches.

[mabrungard]

Step 1: Find out what your water contains.

[David Lester]

Of course when you know the strength of the liquid acid, you can use Bru'n Water to calculate the additions of a variety of acids including phosphoric.

I had not seen that recommendation from Gordon before. Given that he and I live in the land of alkaline waters, using lactic acid is not the best choice because you would probably end up using enough to create a perceptible taste 'twang' from the lactate ion. I have never heard of its effect referred to as a 'harsher bitterness'. When used at most rates, lactic acid is pretty smooth tasting to me. Think of the last Berliner Weisse that had a harsh bitterness.  I think Gordon confused his terms. In addition, all German beers are acidified with lactic acid (via acid malt) and I'm pretty sure they aren't harsh.

With all that said, if your water has more than about 150 ppm alkalinity to neutralize, you should move on to an acid like phosphoric. Phosphoric tends to be the most taste-neutral in beer.

Let's not forget the original questions: "Alternatives to Lactic Acid." However, I agree with you, but my water is 400+ PPM!!! It's awful. I moved to Phosphoric because I was using a lot of the Lactic Acid and I thought it made a harsh taste. But, could have been something else causing the harshness.

Cheers,

[mabrungard]

my water is 400+ PPM!!! It's awful. I moved to Phosphoric because I was using a lot of the Lactic Acid and I thought it made a harsh taste. But, could have been something else causing the harshness.

At 400 ppm alkalinity or HCO3, that means there are a lot of other cations in that water. Either Ca, Mg, or Na. If its Mg, it certainly could lead to harshness. I'm guessing the harshness from the excessive ionic content in that water was there with or without the acid.

That is a tough water to brew with. I'm hoping you have a water report on your supply and know what the actual content is!

[ynotbrusum]

My water was so bad (super high iron content) that I went with an RO system post ion exchange softener.  Sometimes you just gotta say "I'm starting over".  Combined with good brewing books and Brunwater, it was the best move I ever made.

[santoch]

Are you fly sparging?  How fast is your runoff? 
Are you batch sparging? Have you changed how many rinse additions you use?
Is it possible that your mill has widened over time?
Many efficiency problems are crush related.