Author Topic: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend  (Read 1411 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • View Profile
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« on: October 15, 2014, 07:44:19 PM »
decided to load recipes of mine from bru'n water in to brewers friend to see the calculations and if they were close. i've loaded 3 recipes and the delta is about +.2 to +2.5 PH higher in brewers friend. seems significant and curious if anyone has used both and seen variances like this?
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline mchrispen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
    • Accidentalis Brewing Blog
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 08:32:49 PM »
I have not seen that large of difference, but assume there would naturally be differences in the estimates using different algorithms. I find Brewer's Friend confusing and less intuitive, but I have spent a good deal of time learning to use Bru'n and have utmost confidence in it. In deciding which spreadsheet to use a few years ago - I brewed with EZ, Palmer's, Bru'n and Brewer's Friend. Bru'n nailed the estimates within +/- 0.01 pH. I am at the point I often skip measuring mash pH because of my level of confidence.


When the room temp mash pH estimate is not right - I have generally screwed something up. Either got a malt category incorrect or my volumes wrong, or even sloppy measurements of acid or minerals or mash pH. I am sure there are edge cases when the mash estimates are perhaps less accurate, say when there are extreme amounts of roast or crystal in a recipe.


I would encourage you to get a good pH meter, measure everything you can after calibrating it and doing a stability test. Having a repeatable procedure for measurement, cooling the wort to room temp, etc. is also very important.



Matt Chrispen
Sometime Austin Zealot
Blogging from the garage @ accidentalis.com
>> Bru'n Water Spreadsheet Walkthroughs<<
>> Bru'n Water Subscriber Version 5.3 Spreadsheet Walkthrough <<

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19938
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 08:47:52 PM »
All I can say is that Bru'nwater agrees with my measurements every time and the beer tastes great.  I would have to say, then, that for me it's accurate and if Brewer's Friend gave me different results it wouldn't be accurate.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 09:45:02 PM »
All I can say is that Bru'nwater agrees with my measurements every time and the beer tastes great.  I would have to say, then, that for me it's accurate and if Brewer's Friend gave me different results it wouldn't be accurate.

+1
Jon H.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
    • View Profile
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 10:04:11 PM »
I use and overall like brewer's friend. Its easy to use on my tablet. But it seems to suggest too much lactic. I've gotten to where I know from experience what I need water wise and only use the recipe system. The water calculator is consistent but I've had to learn the adjustment factor for my brewery.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • View Profile
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 10:25:42 PM »
im certainly not saying ones better or worse than the other. i have only used bru'n water to do a recipe. i just was curious so i plugged some recipes into brewers friend to see and was surprised in the projected PH variance.

i have a couple Ph meters and use them religiously so no concerns there (yes i calibrate).

i also noticed brewers freind does seem to require more lactic acid as referenced in earlier posting.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 05:09:22 AM »
For me, the differences between Brewer's Friend and Brun'water have been miniscule (.02-.03 at most). I made sure to compare the water profiles for three or four different recipes between the two before I felt comfortable usiong them interchangeably.

Since I use Brewer's Friend for my recipe design, I typically use their water calculator. I use Brun'water when I'm looking to try out a new water profile, but then I generally use Brewer's Friend to apply it to a specific recipe.

I agree that the Brewer's Friend interface can be a bit awkward. Maybe you're not inputting something the same between the two?

One other point of note - I don't sparge, so water calculators are a bit simpler for me. I can't comment on whether something is going on with the sparge calculations.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • View Profile
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: PH difference with Bru'n water and brewers friend
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 03:13:01 PM »
For me, the differences between Brewer's Friend and Brun'water have been miniscule (.02-.03 at most). I made sure to compare the water profiles for three or four different recipes between the two before I felt comfortable usiong them interchangeably.

Since I use Brewer's Friend for my recipe design, I typically use their water calculator. I use Brun'water when I'm looking to try out a new water profile, but then I generally use Brewer's Friend to apply it to a specific recipe.

I agree that the Brewer's Friend interface can be a bit awkward. Maybe you're not inputting something the same between the two?

One other point of note - I don't sparge, so water calculators are a bit simpler for me. I can't comment on whether something is going on with the sparge calculations.

Im must be doing something wrong in brewers friend because PH difference is .2-.3   everything appears to be exactly as it should and matches the entries in bru'n water - must be user error!
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest