Author Topic: Batch Sparge Water  (Read 2516 times)

Offline bbump22

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Batch Sparge Water
« on: April 26, 2010, 10:17:59 AM »
I Batch Sparged the other day and by the time I reached my boil volume there was still a decent amount of water remaining in the mash tun.  Will the extra sparge water not used have an effect on my Brewhouse Efficiency?   ???  I had been averaging around 68%, but this one was down at 57% and all other processes were the same. 

Thanks!
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Offline hokerer

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2010, 10:20:09 AM »
I Batch Sparged the other day and by the time I reached my boil volume there was still a decent amount of water remaining in the mash tun.  Will the extra sparge water not used have an effect on my Brewhouse Efficiency?   ???  I had been averaging around 68%, but this one was down at 57% and all other processes were the same.  

Thanks!

Yeah, the water you left in the tun still had dissolved sugars in it so that would impact your efficiency.  Next time, you might want to think about going ahead and draining completely and either boiling a little longer or (what I do) pressure can the extra for starters.
Joe

Offline bbump22

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 10:24:11 AM »
Cool, thanks!  I need to get my sparge calculation down better and get an accurate volume measurement.  I am tempted to buy a kettle with a sight glass just to be more certain of my volume. 
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Offline tygo

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 10:25:08 AM »
Through some trial and error you should be able to develop a pretty consistent feel for the amount of water which will be lost in your system during the mashing and sparging process (grain absorption, dead spaces below the valve, etc).  Using this info you should eventually be able to plan out the strike and sparge water quantities to get pretty close to your target boil volume.
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Offline denny

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 10:32:45 AM »
Cool, thanks!  I need to get my sparge calculation down better and get an accurate volume measurement.  I am tempted to buy a kettle with a sight glass just to be more certain of my volume. 

There's an even easier way to do it.  After you run of the mash, measure how much wort you have in your kettle.  Subtract that from your boil volume.  The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.  Since the grain is already saturated, it won't absorb any more water.  The only variable will be any dead space in your mash tun.
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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 11:20:56 AM »
The only variable will be any dead space in your mash tun.

Even the dead space won't have any affect, right?  After you drain your tun the first time, the dead space is already full so every bit of what you add after that should come out in the second draining, right?
Joe

Offline tom

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 12:20:45 PM »
Right!
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Offline euge

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2010, 02:16:09 PM »
I always refer to the total volume of cool water that is started with. Account for absorption and boil-off (evaporation). You should collect everything you can since the "wort faeries" can steal away some of the liquid.

When collecting hot wort remember that it also expands plus there is dissolved sugars in it. Relying on the "measuring marks" on the bucket or kettle from pre-mash to pre-boil will usually give inaccuracies in the end.

So if you've calculated your absorption for the grain and hops; evaporation and dead-space arriving at a specific volume, leaving wort in the tun will result in being short post-boil when batch-sparging. 
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman

Offline bbump22

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 09:25:30 AM »
I always refer to the total volume of cool water that is started with. Account for absorption and boil-off (evaporation). You should collect everything you can since the "wort faeries" can steal away some of the liquid.

When collecting hot wort remember that it also expands plus there is dissolved sugars in it. Relying on the "measuring marks" on the bucket or kettle from pre-mash to pre-boil will usually give inaccuracies in the end.

So if you've calculated your absorption for the grain and hops; evaporation and dead-space arriving at a specific volume, leaving wort in the tun will result in being short post-boil when batch-sparging. 


Euge, if you have a chance, would it be possible to give me an example of how you would go about calculating the total volume of cool water to start with?  How much water would you mash with and then how much you would batch sparge with to get your preboil volume?  Assuming you mashed 9 lbs of grain and wanted to end up with a batch size of 3.5 gallons.

If you have the time, I would appreciate it...this is the one variable of my brewing that is giving me the most trouble right now.

Thanks!
mmmm....beer

Offline bbump22

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 09:28:41 AM »
I always refer to the total volume of cool water that is started with. Account for absorption and boil-off (evaporation). You should collect everything you can since the "wort faeries" can steal away some of the liquid.

When collecting hot wort remember that it also expands plus there is dissolved sugars in it. Relying on the "measuring marks" on the bucket or kettle from pre-mash to pre-boil will usually give inaccuracies in the end.

So if you've calculated your absorption for the grain and hops; evaporation and dead-space arriving at a specific volume, leaving wort in the tun will result in being short post-boil when batch-sparging. 


Euge, if you have a chance, would it be possible to give me an example of how you would go about calculating the total volume of cool water to start with?  How much water would you mash with and then how much you would batch sparge with to get your preboil volume?  Assuming you mashed 9 lbs of grain and wanted to end up with a batch size of 3.5 gallons.

If you have the time, I would appreciate it...this is the one variable of my brewing that is giving me the most trouble right now.

Thanks!

Also, I dont have a false bottom in my MT and I just tilt my MT to try to make sure I draw most of the water out.  Generally there is less than about a cup or 2 remaining, if that.
mmmm....beer

Offline denny

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »
Euge, if you have a chance, would it be possible to give me an example of how you would go about calculating the total volume of cool water to start with?  How much water would you mash with and then how much you would batch sparge with to get your preboil volume?  Assuming you mashed 9 lbs of grain and wanted to end up with a batch size of 3.5 gallons.

If you have the time, I would appreciate it...this is the one variable of my brewing that is giving me the most trouble right now.

Thanks!

bbump22, from my website at www.dennybreww.com....

The main concept we’re going to be working with is that for the best efficiency, the runoff volumes from your mash and batch sparge should be equal.  In order to do that, it’s sometimes necessary to infuse your mash with extra water before thefirst runoff.  Here’s how it works...

R1=initial runoff volume which = mash water volume - water absorbed by grain
(assumed to be .1 gal./lb. for this example since that’s the way my system works...use your own figure)

S= batch sparge water volume
V= total boil volume (amount in needed in kettle for boil)
I=volume of infusions for a step mash

R1+I+S(1)+S(2)+S(etc.) must equal V
 AND
R1+I=.5V

Let’s see how this works in a brewing session.  Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort.  A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water.  Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash.  Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff.  Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff.   After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water.  Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before.  These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline bbump22

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 10:18:50 AM »
Euge, if you have a chance, would it be possible to give me an example of how you would go about calculating the total volume of cool water to start with?  How much water would you mash with and then how much you would batch sparge with to get your preboil volume?  Assuming you mashed 9 lbs of grain and wanted to end up with a batch size of 3.5 gallons.

If you have the time, I would appreciate it...this is the one variable of my brewing that is giving me the most trouble right now.

Thanks!

bbump22, from my website at www.dennybreww.com....

The main concept we’re going to be working with is that for the best efficiency, the runoff volumes from your mash and batch sparge should be equal.  In order to do that, it’s sometimes necessary to infuse your mash with extra water before thefirst runoff.  Here’s how it works...

R1=initial runoff volume which = mash water volume - water absorbed by grain
(assumed to be .1 gal./lb. for this example since that’s the way my system works...use your own figure)

S= batch sparge water volume
V= total boil volume (amount in needed in kettle for boil)
I=volume of infusions for a step mash

R1+I+S(1)+S(2)+S(etc.) must equal V
 AND
R1+I=.5V

Let’s see how this works in a brewing session.  Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort.  A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water.  Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash.  Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff.  Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff.   After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water.  Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before.  These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

Once again, Denny to the rescue!  Thanks man - I appreciate it and I have also bookmarked your website. 
mmmm....beer

Offline euge

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 11:07:27 AM »
What Denny said... ;D

Bbump32
Consider that you start with a given amount of water and expect to end up with another. My initial difficulties were relying on volume measurement during the varying stages of the brewing process. Now I don't worry about it until the wort goes into the fermenter. Mysterious extra gallons of hot water were cause for concern, and I found if they weren't included then my final volume was always short and my gravity way off.  :P

From experience I know what it takes to get 12 gallons out of my system- usually my beers use about #25 of grain. Fill the kettle up nearly to the top, about 17-18 gallons. Absorption and evaporation during the process and boil leaves me with 12 gallons. I've done the water calculations for many batches, but now I just fill and brew.  ;)






The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman

Offline bbump22

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 11:23:03 AM »
What Denny said... ;D

Bbump32
Consider that you start with a given amount of water and expect to end up with another. My initial difficulties were relying on volume measurement during the varying stages of the brewing process. Now I don't worry about it until the wort goes into the fermenter. Mysterious extra gallons of hot water were cause for concern, and I found if they weren't included then my final volume was always short and my gravity way off.  :P

From experience I know what it takes to get 12 gallons out of my system- usually my beers use about #25 of grain. Fill the kettle up nearly to the top, about 17-18 gallons. Absorption and evaporation during the process and boil leaves me with 12 gallons. I've done the water calculations for many batches, but now I just fill and brew.  ;)








One day I hope to be able to just fill and brew too! 

Denny, after the mash is complete and adding additional 1.375 Gal of water to compensate for absorbtion, what temperature should that water be heated to?
mmmm....beer

Offline hokerer

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Re: Batch Sparge Water
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 11:57:02 AM »
Denny, after the mash is complete and adding additional 1.375 Gal of water to compensate for absorbtion, what temperature should that water be heated to?

Ideally, you'd like to heat your "mash out" water to whatever temperature it requires to raise your mash temp to just below 168F.  Brewing software usually has some sort of "mash calculator" function that'll allow you to figure out what that temp is.  I know BeerSmith that I use has that feature.
Joe