Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!  (Read 5933 times)

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11326
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2014, 06:30:08 am »
Look what I don't know. Ph would not have been my first, second, or last guess. But it makes sense. Too high ph extracts tannins from husk so why not color too, since a lot of the color is in the husk. Or am I still not even close?

I guess it wasn't really obvious. Just wish I had thought to say it. ;)

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11326
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2014, 06:32:14 am »
The first thing affecting color is pH. From the OPs message, I don't get the impression that much is known or done with the water. If the mash and wort pH are high, that will extract more color from the grain.

If they are not looking at the water, they should be.

I'm going to be paying attention to my water chemistry more closely. Where I'm from it's "Oh, we have the best water in the country." And while we do have very good and flavorless water, the city test results show a pH of about 9.5. I do know guys that brew at home though and don't mess with adjusting pH at all and don't have this issue.

All I have done to lower my pH is throw the recommended amount of Gypsum in my water (8 grams per 5 gal) and trusted it work. Lazy, I know. I first started doing this for more "pop" from my hops but now learning pH can effect color as well?! Damn water.

I just bought some pH strips and will be trying to get in range with my next brew using the Gypsum.

Quick question ... When would I check my pH exactly? Would I add Gypsum upon firing up my burner to bring strike water up to temp and then check pH just before mash-in?

I've even read of some people adding Gypsum during boil but that makes no sense to me at all. Especially if color is your issue, like in my case.

Your water pH is very high. I'd look at that first. You should add you salts and acids as you dough in and check about 15 minutes in. Use the colorpHast (brand name) strips if you can't afford a meter.

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2014, 06:56:27 am »
The first thing affecting color is pH. From the OPs message, I don't get the impression that much is known or done with the water. If the mash and wort pH are high, that will extract more color from the grain.

If they are not looking at the water, they should be.

I'm going to be paying attention to my water chemistry more closely. Where I'm from it's "Oh, we have the best water in the country." And while we do have very good and flavorless water, the city test results show a pH of about 9.5. I do know guys that brew at home though and don't mess with adjusting pH at all and don't have this issue.

All I have done to lower my pH is throw the recommended amount of Gypsum in my water (8 grams per 5 gal) and trusted it work. Lazy, I know. I first started doing this for more "pop" from my hops but now learning pH can effect color as well?! Damn water.

I just bought some pH strips and will be trying to get in range with my next brew using the Gypsum.

Quick question ... When would I check my pH exactly? Would I add Gypsum upon firing up my burner to bring strike water up to temp and then check pH just before mash-in?

I've even read of some people adding Gypsum during boil but that makes no sense to me at all. Especially if color is your issue, like in my case.

Your water pH is very high. I'd look at that first. You should add you salts and acids as you dough in and check about 15 minutes in. Use the colorpHast (brand name) strips if you can't afford a meter.


So, water in kettle, stir in salts and acids, get to strike temp, mash-in, check pH 15 minutes in?

But this means I have to take my 80's sleeping bag insulator off of my kettle during mash for a couple minutes. I'll probably lose 20°!  hehe
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 07:06:37 am by typebrad »

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11326
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2014, 07:55:46 am »
You can adjust the mash water but I prefer to adjust the mash by putting acids and salts in the mash directly.

You could make a mash tun out of a cooler.

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3778
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2014, 08:11:43 am »
So, water in kettle, stir in salts and acids, get to strike temp, mash-in, check pH 15 minutes in?

But this means I have to take my 80's sleeping bag insulator off of my kettle during mash for a couple minutes. I'll probably lose 20°!  hehe

You have a reliable method of ph adjustment for the mash you will probably find you can get away with not checking the ph during the mash. I'd suggest taking a look at Bru'n Water, which will explain pretty much everything you need to know about water chemistry plus it's the best tool out there IMO for water adjustment.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2014, 08:15:59 am »

You have a reliable method of ph adjustment for the mash you will probably find you can get away with not checking the ph during the mash. I'd suggest taking a look at Bru'n Water, which will explain pretty much everything you need to know about water chemistry plus it's the best tool out there IMO for water adjustment.

+1
Jon H.

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2014, 10:38:19 am »
LOOK AT THIS NIGHTMARE

For the record, the commercial brew is unfiltered, so even it has a little haze about it.

Mine on left (all Briess Pale 2-Row), commercial version on right. I realize the light here sucks, but you don't need sunlight and a special vessel to see the obvious color issue. The shot of my beer is even a little over-exposed (see how bright countertop is), so that means in person it's even a little darker than it appears here.

Some of the haze goes away when it warms a bit, but that doesn't say anything about how dark this beer turned out using one grain as pale as the one used.

 :-\



http://s8.postimg.org/scadz2m3p/IMG_0464.jpg

That's PALE 2-ROW!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 11:38:59 am by typebrad »

Offline Stevie

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6858
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2014, 11:04:03 am »
Broken link

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2014, 11:39:35 am »
Weird.

See if this direct link works. I don't have anywhere to host images, so I'm having to use some wonky service.


http://s8.postimg.org/scadz2m3p/IMG_0464.jpg

Offline tommymorris

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3869
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2014, 11:44:58 am »
LOOK AT THIS NIGHTMARE

For the record, the commercial brew is unfiltered, so even it has a little haze about it.

Mine on left (all Briess Pale 2-Row), commercial version on right. I realize the light here sucks, but you don't need sunlight and a special vessel to see the obvious color issue. The shot of my beer is even a little over-exposed (see how bright countertop is), so that means in person it's even a little darker than it appears here.

Some of the haze goes away when it warms a bit, but that doesn't say anything about how dark this beer turned out using one grain as pale as the one used.

 :-\



http://s8.postimg.org/scadz2m3p/IMG_0464.jpg

That's PALE 2-ROW!


Did you brew with Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt (1.8 L) or Briess Pale Ale Malt (3.5 L)?  Your post says Pale 2-Row.  There is a big difference in color. If you used the Pale ale malt and got a dark lot you could end up with a pretty dark beer (not 9 SRM though).

Just a thought.

Offline morticaixavier

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7781
  • Underhill VT
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2014, 11:56:12 am »
some of that is chill haze which can be pH related combined with the increased color extraction Martin mentions, the possible darker pale ale malt, and some remaining yeast in suspension (which can be related to water issues as well)

I'm leaning towards water as the culprit. easy test though, brew a batch with distilled or RO water and see if the problem continues. Download bru'n water and make sure you hit a solid 5.4 predicted pH and you should be good.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2014, 12:16:23 pm »

Did you brew with Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt (1.8 L) or Briess Pale Ale Malt (3.5 L)?  Your post says Pale 2-Row.  There is a big difference in color. If you used the Pale ale malt and got a dark lot you could end up with a pretty dark beer (not 9 SRM though).

Just a thought.


As I was purchasing my grain the guy at the shop was like, "Hey, ya want to buy the 3.5 just to add a little color?" I was very specific I wanted the lighter grain, but for all I know he sold me the 3.5 anyway. We totally had a conversation about the two though, and that's funny you mention that. if he did that to me, he's an a**hole considering the madness he's caused me.  :)

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2014, 02:45:40 pm »
If I wanted to experiment with my water, how important is it to heat the water? If necessary, would I just heat an average mash volume to an estimated strike temp? Is it necessary for grain to be present if I'm only looking to experiment with pH?

Offline morticaixavier

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7781
  • Underhill VT
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 03:09:54 pm »
If I wanted to experiment with my water, how important is it to heat the water? If necessary, would I just heat an average mash volume to an estimated strike temp? Is it necessary for grain to be present if I'm only looking to experiment with pH?

yes it is totally necessary. you are concerned with mash pH which is heavily influenced by the grist. Download the bru'n water spreadsheet and look it over. it has a lot of good info on water chemistry for brewing and what is important.

The basics are that the phytins (sp?) in the grain are going to react with the calcium either already present in the water or added by the brewer, to knock out alkalinity in the mixture (alkalinity is the real enemy here) otherwise that alkalinity will react with the grain and extract unpleasant flavors and, apparently, colors.

You may also have to add an organic or inorganic acid (lactic or phosphoric are the favorites) to fine tune your pH and knock down the last of the unwanted alkalinity. This is particularly true with lighter colored beers.

Then again you may find, with some darker beers, that you need to add alkalinity.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline typebrad

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New to Forum (Why are my brews so dark??) HELP!
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2014, 04:52:37 pm »
I am so in love with this forum. I don't even think it's been 24 hours I've been a member. You guys are the best!