[BrodyR]

Lately I've noticed my beers are a bit more bitter than I estimated and I just thought of a theory as to why that may be.

I started incorporating hop stands at 170f in my Pales - I know that you extract very small amount of IBU's, if any, at that temp but it occurred to me that to drop the temp from boil to 170f I just stir and give it a few minutes. Maybe this is making my late additions isomertize a lot more than it would with a fast chill.

I'm brainstorming how to account for this better - maybe I should add a 10 or 15m whirlpool addition in beer smith to account for the extended time? Or just fire up the wort chiller and get to 170f faster?

[HoosierBrew]

If it's been taking a while to get down to 170F you could be extracting a few more IBUs from your boil additions. I cool with my chiller right away - I think it's the easiest way to avoid it. You could figure in a 15 minute whirlpool into your software if you think it matches what your taste buds are sensing. I chill immediately to 170F - 165F and feel that any additional bitterness is negligible.

[stpug]

^^^ I do the same thing. Quick IC chill to 175-170, then hop stand. I get very little additional IBUs from this method, or at least my tongue tells me so

[BrodyR]

Makes sense. Another thought came to mind too. I could extract all my IBU's from FWH/60m then save all the late additions for 170f hop stand & dry hoping. Anyone ever try that? I'm thinking it should provide a pretty clean and controlled bitterness and a lot of hop flavor/aroma.

[hopfenundmalz]

I have done FWH or early additions for some IBUs, added hops at flameout for more IBU and flavor, then at 170 for flavor and aroma. It works very well.

[HoosierBrew]

+1.   Brody -   What I don't do though (for example) is decide to do a 100 IBU IPA and add 100 IBU for 60 minutes and then do a hop stand. What I've been doing lately is to add 50-55 IBU for IPA ( or 40 IBU for APA) for 60 minutes, then cool to 165F-170F and add whatever my late boil hops would normally have been. So technically IBUs calculate as 50 -55 for IPA (for example) but the hop flavor is huge and better than boil flavor additions IMO. Then I dry hop as I normally would.
You can't get too hung up on IBUs as a rigid number. A lot of factors come into play in terms of how you perceive hoppiness. For example, 55 IBUs of Columbus seems more coarse and bitter than 55 IBUs of a clean hop like Warrior or Magnum. The grist composition and mash temp influence the perception of maltiness and therefore hop bitterness as well. Same goes for your yeast strain. Bottom line - beers made like this calculate a bit lower in terms of IBUs, but seem hoppier because of the big , excellent hop flavor.

[dmtaylor]

I imagine isomerization happens at 170 F at about a quarter of the rate of boiling.  This is based on the old engineer's rule of thumb that reaction rates double for every 20 F.  So 170 + 20 + 20 = 210, so you've halved the reaction rate twice, for 1/4 the isomerization.  Just a rule of thumb kind of reasoning.  As an example, if you boil X amount of hops for 20 minutes and get 20 IBUs, you can expect to extract roughly 5 IBUs from a 20-minute stand at 170 F.

[HoosierBrew]

I imagine isomerization happens at 170 F at about a quarter of the rate of boiling.  This is based on the old engineer's rule of thumb that reaction rates double for every 20 F.  So 170 + 20 + 20 = 210, so you've halved the reaction rate twice, for 1/4 the isomerization.  Just a rule of thumb kind of reasoning.  As an example, if you boil X amount of hops for 20 minutes and get 20 IBUs, you can expect to extract roughly 5 IBUs from a 20-minute stand at 170 F.

I'm sure the IBUs must calculate, Dave - no doubt. I just found that I stopped noticing much added bitterness at under 175F. Aside from that, hop flavor seems a little better (to me) a few degrees cooler, which is why I like to use 165-170F to steep - I feel I can control bitterness pretty precisely at a cooler temp which also gives me better hop flavor.

[BrodyR]

+1.   Brody -   What I don't do though (for example) is decide to do a 100 IBU IPA and add 100 IBU for 60 minutes and then do a hop stand. What I've been doing lately is to add 50-55 IBU for IPA ( or 40 IBU for APA) for 60 minutes, then cool to 165F-170F and add whatever my late boil hops would normally have been. So technically IBUs calculate as 50 -55 for IPA (for example) but the hop flavor is huge and better than boil flavor additions IMO. Then I dry hop as I normally would.
You can't get too hung up on IBUs as a rigid number. A lot of factors come into play in terms of how you perceive hoppiness. For example, 55 IBUs of Columbus seems more coarse and bitter than 55 IBUs of a clean hop like Warrior or Magnum. The grist composition and mash temp influence the perception of maltiness and therefore hop bitterness as well. Same goes for your yeast strain. Bottom line - beers made like this calculate a bit lower in terms of IBUs, but seem hoppier because of the big , excellent hop flavor.

Sounds like a plan - I think I'm gonna shoot for 30IBU's for a 1.045 pale from FWH and assume I'll probably get a slight but more IBU's from going heavy during the hop stand.

I actually think I'm gonna tone down my dry hopping after reading a section in the Hops book where it mentions after a half pound per barrel you get significantly lower return and few were going above a pound per barrel. In home brewers terms that would be .25 to .5 oz per gallon right? I've been doing closer to an ounce per gallon dry. Probably wasting $ on hops & sucking up more beer.

[HoosierBrew]

+1.   Brody -   What I don't do though (for example) is decide to do a 100 IBU IPA and add 100 IBU for 60 minutes and then do a hop stand. What I've been doing lately is to add 50-55 IBU for IPA ( or 40 IBU for APA) for 60 minutes, then cool to 165F-170F and add whatever my late boil hops would normally have been. So technically IBUs calculate as 50 -55 for IPA (for example) but the hop flavor is huge and better than boil flavor additions IMO. Then I dry hop as I normally would.
You can't get too hung up on IBUs as a rigid number. A lot of factors come into play in terms of how you perceive hoppiness. For example, 55 IBUs of Columbus seems more coarse and bitter than 55 IBUs of a clean hop like Warrior or Magnum. The grist composition and mash temp influence the perception of maltiness and therefore hop bitterness as well. Same goes for your yeast strain. Bottom line - beers made like this calculate a bit lower in terms of IBUs, but seem hoppier because of the big , excellent hop flavor.

Sounds like a plan - I think I'm gonna shoot for 30IBU's for a 1.045 pale from FWH and assume I'll probably get a slight but more IBU's from going heavy during the hop stand.

I actually think I'm gonna tone down my dry hopping after reading a section in the Hops book where it mentions after a half pound per barrel you get significantly lower return and few were going above a pound per barrel. In home brewers terms that would be .25 to .5 oz per gallon right? I've been doing closer to an ounce per gallon dry. Probably wasting $ on hops & sucking up more beer.

You'll have to experiment there. I like ~ 2.5 oz dry hops for APA and 5-6+ oz for AIPA for 5 gallons, so that's above the book's levels. I like the results. The best thing to do is try an amount, take good notes and compare it to your impressions of a different amount.

EDIT -  Keep in mind that the book is one recommendation on dry hopping. I've seen others (Mitch Steele of Stone included) that talk about using higher amounts for IPA/IIPA.

[S. cerevisiae]

I actually think I'm gonna tone down my dry hopping after reading a section in the Hops book where it mentions after a half pound per barrel you get significantly lower return and few were going above a pound per barrel. In home brewers terms that would be .25 to .5 oz per gallon right? I've been doing closer to an ounce per gallon dry. Probably wasting $ on hops & sucking up more beer.

The key to obtaining consistent late hoping results is to purchase volatile oil-rated hops.    Mark Garetz used to sell volatile oil-rated hops.

[erockrph]

I actually think I'm gonna tone down my dry hopping after reading a section in the Hops book where it mentions after a half pound per barrel you get significantly lower return and few were going above a pound per barrel. In home brewers terms that would be .25 to .5 oz per gallon right? I've been doing closer to an ounce per gallon dry. Probably wasting $ on hops & sucking up more beer.

The key to obtaining consistent late hoping results is to purchase volatile oil-rated hops.    Mark Garetz used to sell volatile oil-rated hops.

Hopefully this will one day become as common information as AA%. I wish everyone was doing this.