[morticaixavier]

Awesome. I was a big fan of water, a splash of bleach and a few hours in the sun!

I switched back to using bleach because all of the beers that I made with Star San alone had a low-level off flavor that I could not eliminate through any other means.

do yo uthink that was from the star san itself or from resistant biota?  It seems like a good idea to shock your system on occasion either with bleach or with a no-rinse sanitizer that you don't normally use.

[chumley]

I have six primary fermentors, all in the 6.5 to 7 gallon capacity range.  Two glass carboys, two better bottles, two plastic buckets.  I like them all.  I also use bleach to sanitize them, and triple rinse. Never have any problems (knock on wood) with them.  Been brewing for 24 years.

[S. cerevisiae]

do yo uthink that was from the star san itself or from resistant biota?  It seems like a good idea to shock your system on occasion either with bleach or with a no-rinse sanitizer that you don't normally use.

I am not certain at this point, but I believe that I may have picked up a wild yeast strain because the off-flavor was persistent low-level phenolic spice that could only be detected in the finish.  I soaked all of my plastic gear in a dilute bleach solution (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons) for several hours before rinsing with hot tap and finishing off with Star San, and the off-flavor went away.

Star San works on the same principle as acid washing, which means that it does not kill wild yeast or mold (the elephant in the room). Bleach kills everything, including viruses.  I am currently looking into the possibility of switching to peracetic acid, which is a no-rinse oxidizing sanitizer that is formed by mixing acetic acid with hydrogen peroxide.

[BrewArk]

...  I am currently looking into the possibility of switching to peracetic acid, which is a no-rinse oxidizing sanitizer that is formed by mixing acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide.

Tried that, ugh!  Back to bleach for me.

[HoosierBrew]

I use Starsan, but a couple times a year I use a bleach solution first, rinse very thoroughly, and then use Starsan as extra insurance against resistant infection. IIRC someone here posted maybe last year on a recent study which concluded that some organisms can indeed build resistance to the same sanitizer over time. 

[S. cerevisiae]

Tried that, ugh!  Back to bleach for me.

Well, that's not what I wanted to hear.  Have you tried chlorine dioxide?

[BrewBama]

I also got back into brewing last year.  I completely agree with Denny's site for batch sparging tips http://dennybrew.com/ and checking Don O's batch sparge videos on YouTube. 

Though I have a glass carboy for my secondary, I cringe every time I pick it up.  I've seen some nasty wounds inflicted by an angry glass carboy.  I think the Bigmouth plastic is safer and easier to clean if you are adverse to using plastic buckets.  However, Speidel's are VERY nice.

However, I have to admit, I thought it was really cool to see the turbulence of my Cali Common goin at it in the fermenter even by shining a light momentarily against the plastic bucket.  Made me want to get some Bigmouth plastic fermenters.

As far as equipment, I am always seeing folks on Homebrewtalk posting equip for sale.  I bought new but I imagine with some serious cleaning and replacement of expendable parts, used would be the way to go.

[69franx]

I use Starsan, but a couple times a year I use a bleach solution first, rinse very thoroughly, and then use Starsan as extra insurance against resistant infection. IIRC someone here posted maybe last year on a recent study which concluded that some organisms can indeed build resistance to the same sanitizer over time.

So Jon, what strength are you using the bleach solution at? I've been brewing for about 1.5 years and have not switched up sanitizer sat all. Have bleach at home, just curious

[HoosierBrew]

I use Starsan, but a couple times a year I use a bleach solution first, rinse very thoroughly, and then use Starsan as extra insurance against resistant infection. IIRC someone here posted maybe last year on a recent study which concluded that some organisms can indeed build resistance to the same sanitizer over time.

So Jon, what strength are you using the bleach solution at? I've been brewing for about 1.5 years and have not switched up sanitizer sat all. Have bleach at home, just curious

Just a dilute solution similar to what S. Cere mentioned - a couple or three tablespoons of UNSCENTED bleach/5 gallons, mixed well and soaked for a couple hours. I rinse with a ton of hot water, then give it starsan. Looking back I've done it once or twice/year for a few years. Cheap easy insurance.

[S. cerevisiae]

The problem with Star San is not resistance.  It's the way that Star San sanitizes.  Star San is not a true anti-microbial.  It's more accurately an anti-bacterial.  The main active ingredient in Star San is the same chemical that is used to acid wash yeast; namely, phosphoric acid.   Like acid washing, Star San works by lowering the pH below that at which most bacteria can survive.  Wild yeast, mold, and acid-resistant bacteria are not killed by lowering the pH to below 3.0, which is why a yeast culture that becomes infected with wild yeast, mold, or acid-resistant bacteria has to be discarded or plated.

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) sanitizes via a different mechanism.  Sodium hypochlorite is a salt form of hypochlorous acid.  Hypochlorous acid is a strong oxidant that kills a microbe by breaching its cell wall. Once inside of a cell it wreaks havoc by denaturing proteins.  Hypochlorous acid can perform this feat because it carries a neutral charge; hence, it is not repelled by the cell membrane's negative charge.

[morticaixavier]

The problem with Star San is not resistance.  It's the way that Star San sanitizes.  Star San is not a true anti-microbial.  It's more accurately an anti-bacterial.  The main active ingredient in Star San is the same chemical that is used to acid wash yeast; namely, phosphoric acid.   Like acid washing, Star San works by lowering the pH below that at which most bacteria can survive.  Wild yeast, mold, and acid-resistant bacteria are not killed by lowering the pH to below 3.0, which is why a yeast culture that becomes infected with wild yeast, mold, or acid-resistant bacteria has to be discarded or plated.

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) sanitizes via a different mechanism.  Sodium hypochlorite is a salt form of hypochlorous acid.  Hypochlorous acid is a strong oxidant that kills a microbe by breaching its cell wall. Once inside of a cell it wreaks havoc by denaturing proteins.  Hypochlorous acid can perform this feat because it carries a neutral charge; hence, it is not repelled by the cell membrane's negative charge.

Science!

[narcout]

There's always Iodophor.

[BrewBama]

The problem with Star San is not resistance.  It's the way that Star San sanitizes.  Star San is not a true anti-microbial.  It's more accurately an anti-bacterial.  The main active ingredient in Star San is the same chemical that is used to acid wash yeast; namely, phosphoric acid.   Like acid washing, Star San works by lowering the pH below that at which most bacteria can survive.  Wild yeast, mold, and acid-resistant bacteria are not killed by lowering the pH to below 3.0, which is why a yeast culture that becomes infected with wild yeast, mold, or acid-resistant bacteria has to be discarded or plated.

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) sanitizes via a different mechanism.  Sodium hypochlorite is a salt form of hypochlorous acid.  Hypochlorous acid is a strong oxidant that kills a microbe by breaching its cell wall. Once inside of a cell it wreaks havoc by denaturing proteins.  Hypochlorous acid can perform this feat because it carries a neutral charge; hence, it is not repelled by the cell membrane's negative charge.

I learn something every time I come here.

[narcout]

I learn something every time I come here.

If you haven't listened to them before, the Brewing Radio podcasts with the manufacturers of the various sanitizers are pretty informative. 

[ynotbrusum]

There are clear plastic fermenters available, of course.  See the big mouth bubbler from online brewing equipment suppliers as an example or Jim can show you his acrylic (I think) fermenters.  But at the end of the day I love my 60 liter Spiedels for my ten gallon lager batches.

I had a persistent bug a while back that gave me clove (and I am sensitive to clove perception).  I used PBW on everything at pretty high concentrations, even on buckets (I didn't have the problem in the better bottles thankfully) and retired a few buckets to sour use/ household maintenance-only just to be sure that wild yeast left my brewery.  It can be tough to isolate and banish, for sure.