[kylekohlmorgen]

By far - the most complex and authentic-tasting saisons I've made have been with Wyeast 3724.

But its a PITA to work with. Even paired with a 'finishing' strain (I usually use Brett), the conditioning time can be 4-8 weeks.

I'm doing some trials repitching 3724 (with a bit of brett) now - has anyone seen a drop in conditioning time after multiple generations?

I'm on the path towards a great 'house' saison, and I don't much care for the other available strains out there.

[reverseapachemaster]

I don't have personal experience repitching 3724 but I have read from more than one person that fermentation is quicker with subsequent pitches. I'm not sure if it has the same effect on post-fermentation conditioning.

An extended conditioning time seems to be a hallmark of all/most saison strains. I know Dupont lagers their bottles for weeks after packaging (Farmhouse Ales). I also see considerable improvement in flavor with 3711 after 4-8 weeks but that is fermented around 85-90F. In the 70s that doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with that particular strain.

[HoosierBrew]

By far - the most complex and authentic-tasting saisons I've made have been with Wyeast 3724.

^^^^^^^  I don't believe I've ever repitched it (always on to brew the next thing). I've heard that repitching improves performance as well - need to try it next time.

[slarkin712]

I have a saison I just brewed with 3724 and 1/4 packet of belle saison.  Went from fermentor to keg in 12 days!  So much faster than with 3724 as the only strain.  What does the extra conditioning time do with this strain?  Mine is in the keg carbing at ~39F, and I'm only expecting it to clear, which may remove some of the yeasty flavors.  You're saying it will improve its flavor profile with extended conditioning at room temp?

[kramerog]

Kyle, what temperature have you been fermenting at?  I've fermented with 3724 in the high 80s which makes me concerned about repitching yeast in poor health.

Anyone have experience repitching 3724 after a high temperature fermentation?

[duboman]

No experience repitching 3724 but I can tell you if you pitch it warm, like above 75 and simply allow it to self rise into the 80-90 degree range it will ferment quickly, without stall and easily below 1.010 and produce a great beer!

If you don't get it warm it will finish but very slowly, so warm it up and give it a rouse:)

[narvin]

No experience repitching 3724 but I can tell you if you pitch it warm, like above 75 and simply allow it to self rise into the 80-90 degree range it will ferment quickly, without stall and easily below 1.010 and produce a great beer!

+1 to this.  Also, make sure it doesn't drop in temperature too quickly after high krausen.  If your house is cool, a heating pad may help.

[brewinhard]

I have experience with both high ferment temps and repitching this strain.  I have found that with the first pitch from a starter that WY 3724 takes at least 6 wks fermented from 68-82F even with a very low OG (1.046).  When repitching this yeast (from a slurry out of the fermenter) I have observed that the second generation had a much more normal fermentation time period typically finishing in under 3wks at the same temps. 

As far as repitching from a very high fermentation temp, I once brewed a 1.075 dark saison that had a brew belt on it and the temps got upward of 95F and crept close to 100F!  I thought I killed the yeast, ruined the beer, and screwed everything up.  Luckily, the beer finished just fine in 2.5 wks and when I repitched the yeast from the fermenter, it had no problem ripping through the following batch just fine, with no off flavors.  In fact, I think the yeast strain was actually just beginning to acclimate to my brewing environment and process at the time.  That 3724 is the BEST saison strain out there AFAIC.  You just have to be patient and teach it how to move along....

[narvin]

Granted, my experience is with White Labs 565. I still pitch at 68, but push it into the 80s by day 3.  I think it makes a difference to get it warm early.

I also make sure to start with a "low" gravity, at least by Belgian standards (though not for traditional saison)... 1.054 to 1.006 by day 5

[HoosierBrew]

I remember fermenting 3724 @ 90F after reading the Wyeast recommendation to maintain it there. It went against everything I knew about fermenting on the cool side but I was pretty curious. Went from 1.054 down to 1.002 in like 9 days - no stall. And it was excellent.

[kylekohlmorgen]

No experience repitching 3724 but I can tell you if you pitch it warm, like above 75 and simply allow it to self rise into the 80-90 degree range it will ferment quickly, without stall and easily below 1.010 and produce a great beer!

+1 to this.  Also, make sure it doesn't drop in temperature too quickly after high krausen.  If your house is cool, a heating pad may help.

For this last batch, I pitched at 67F and increased temperature by 1F per day until I got to 76F, then held at 76F for another 10-12 days.

I use bucket fermentors in a dorm-room fridge w/ a 2-stage controller. For heating, I use a heat belt - one of those thick plastic ones, not the cheap thin strip. Temp probe in thermowell through airlock hole. Bucket lid was loose to relieve pressure and simulate open fermentation.

I found that the heat of fermentation would not increase the fermentor temperature - to step up the temp, I would have to increase the heating belt set point.

Anyone else have this issue? I'll continue to post updates - using the harvested slurry in a rebrew this week.

[kylekohlmorgen]

What does the extra conditioning time do with this strain?...

The saison has some 'rough edges' which mellow out after a few weeks of conditioning (around 62F).

I also get some alcohol heat and astringency immediately after fermentation which drops out during this conditioning phase. Thinking about it, the alcohol could just be from the relatively high temperature of the sample (76F-80F) and the astringency could be from a high amount of suspended yeast.

It also took approx. 3 weeks to reach FG = 1.006, though it reached 1.009 in 10 days.

I have a saison I just brewed with 3724 and 1/4 packet of belle saison...

I was concerned Belle or 3711, even in a small amount, would start fast and takeover the fermentation profile. Brett is slower to start in primary, but the strain I used provides a wonderful (but restrained) layer of complexity. The increase in shelf life and complexity with age makes it worth bottling.

[brewinhard]

I do like some brett in my saison's (sometimes, not always).  Although, over the years I have learned that I prefer the brett profile to be subdued and faint, not in your face horsey or goaty/sweaty.  I have found two ways to achieve this less than subtle brett profile

1.  Secondary ferment in a keg at cool temps (i.e. mid to high 50F's).
2.  Use a less aggressive strain in secondary (i.e. Brett trois, Brett C.) at room temps for only a few mos period in the keg and taste along the way till it just starts to get noticeable.  Then chill, carb, and SCHWILL!!!

[duboman]

No experience repitching 3724 but I can tell you if you pitch it warm, like above 75 and simply allow it to self rise into the 80-90 degree range it will ferment quickly, without stall and easily below 1.010 and produce a great beer!

+1 to this.  Also, make sure it doesn't drop in temperature too quickly after high krausen.  If your house is cool, a heating pad may help.

For this last batch, I pitched at 67F and increased temperature by 1F per day until I got to 76F, then held at 76F for another 10-12 days.

I use bucket fermentors in a dorm-room fridge w/ a 2-stage controller. For heating, I use a heat belt - one of those thick plastic ones, not the cheap thin strip. Temp probe in thermowell through airlock hole. Bucket lid was loose to relieve pressure and simulate open fermentation.

I found that the heat of fermentation would not increase the fermentor temperature - to step up the temp, I would have to increase the heating belt set point.

Anyone else have this issue? I'll continue to post updates - using the harvested slurry in a rebrew this week.

You can try a light bulb in a coffee can instead, should be able to get warmer

[reverseapachemaster]

I found that the heat of fermentation would not increase the fermentor temperature - to step up the temp, I would have to increase the heating belt set point.

Anyone else have this issue? I'll continue to post updates - using the harvested slurry in a rebrew this week.

At homebrew volumes I don't think the fermentation is sufficiently exothermic to get that much warmer than room temperature. I always have to use a heating element for assistance.