Author Topic: shocking my system  (Read 4006 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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shocking my system
« on: November 11, 2014, 05:57:10 PM »
thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just because all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

edit: interesting is the difference in opinion on this and the difference between sanitation and disinfecting dosage and contact time. sanitation is reducing germs on inanimate surfaces to levels considered safe by public health codes or regulations. Disinfection is considered destroying or inactivating most germs on any inanimate surface. apparently water quality and PH that you add chlorine bleach to also makes a difference in the effectiveness and required dosage and contact time.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 06:15:39 PM by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 06:16:53 PM »
thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.
Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 06:31:13 PM »
thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.

so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Dort
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Offline seefish

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 06:54:20 PM »
If you are worried about your plastic equipment I would just replace it...it is relatively cheap and probably is filled with tiny scratches that are impossible to disinfect no matter what concentrations of chlorine you use.  You can't disinfect if its not already clean, and there are plenty of tiny scratches for contaminants to hide in.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 07:01:32 PM »
If you are worried about your plastic equipment I would just replace it...it is relatively cheap and probably is filled with tiny scratches that are impossible to disinfect no matter what concentrations of chlorine you use.  You can't disinfect if its not already clean, and there are plenty of tiny scratches for contaminants to hide in.

not worried about plastic-no plastic buckets used so scratches on my other equipment not an issue. i clean religiously-more about what starsan kills and what it doesnt, resistance, and the need for chlorine bleach occasionally to take care of the nasties that could be there.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »
thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.

so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.

Well, Palmer recommended in HTB 1 tbsp/gallon as a no rinse sanitizer for 20 minutes.

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/11907/sanitizing-with-bleach-without-rinsing


And Charlie P always recommended 2 oz/ 5 gallons. This is a reference to that:

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/principles-of-cleaning-and-sanitizing/


 I'm not using bleach as my sole sanitizer - I use it occasionally to hopefully get rid of something that starsan MIGHT not, without having to use a lot of bleach which could likely leave residue and flavor.

 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 07:21:36 PM by HoosierBrew »
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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 07:23:19 PM »

thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.

so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.

Well, Palmer recommended in HTB 1 tbsp/gallon as a no rinse sanitizer for 20 minutes.

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/11907/sanitizing-with-bleach-without-rinsing


And Charlie P always recommended 2 oz/ 5 gallons. This is a reference to that:

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/principles-of-cleaning-and-sanitizing/


So 2 tbsp would = 1 oz/5 gallons. I'm not using bleach as my sole sanitizer - I use it occasionally to hopefully get rid of something that starsan MIGHT not, without having to use a lot of bleach which could likely leave residue and flavor.

And I agree it seems in brewing that's the practice as you reference. Just curious if it's beneficial at low levels or not- in the interest of time well spent. Knock on plastic but so far starsan has served me well.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 07:33:52 PM »

thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.

so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.

Well, Palmer recommended in HTB 1 tbsp/gallon as a no rinse sanitizer for 20 minutes.

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/11907/sanitizing-with-bleach-without-rinsing


And Charlie P always recommended 2 oz/ 5 gallons. This is a reference to that:

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/principles-of-cleaning-and-sanitizing/


So 2 tbsp would = 1 oz/5 gallons. I'm not using bleach as my sole sanitizer - I use it occasionally to hopefully get rid of something that starsan MIGHT not, without having to use a lot of bleach which could likely leave residue and flavor.

And I agree it seems in brewing that's the practice as you reference. Just curious if it's beneficial at low levels or not- in the interest of time well spent. Knock on plastic but so far starsan has served me well.

I think it is beneficial .  Charlie P and Palmer (and many others) recommended those levels as stand alone no rinse sanitizers, and there are brewers here that still do something similar on all their batches. I did it for years before starsan. I feel like it's plenty. The argument against using bleach in the first place wasn't its effectiveness - it was the impact on flavors/aromas and the fact that bleach corrodes stainless at the welds.
Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 07:35:40 PM »


thinking of shocking all my equipment in my brewhaus-not because i have anything just becuase all i use is starsan and pbw and think perhaps a chlorine shock may be a good idea once in a while.

whats the proper dosing per gallon of water, and how much contact time to do the job?

thanks

I posted yesterday that I use maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons unscented bleach per 5 gallons. A couple hours contact time. Be sure to rinse like crazy with hot water. Then starsan it.

so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.

Well, Palmer recommended in HTB 1 tbsp/gallon as a no rinse sanitizer for 20 minutes.

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/11907/sanitizing-with-bleach-without-rinsing


And Charlie P always recommended 2 oz/ 5 gallons. This is a reference to that:

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/principles-of-cleaning-and-sanitizing/


So 2 tbsp would = 1 oz/5 gallons. I'm not using bleach as my sole sanitizer - I use it occasionally to hopefully get rid of something that starsan MIGHT not, without having to use a lot of bleach which could likely leave residue and flavor.

And I agree it seems in brewing that's the practice as you reference. Just curious if it's beneficial at low levels or not- in the interest of time well spent. Knock on plastic but so far starsan has served me well.

I think it is beneficial .  Charlie P and Palmer (and many others) recommended those levels as stand alone no rinse sanitizers, and there are brewers here that still do something similar on all their batches. I did it for years before starsan. I feel like it's plenty. The argument against using bleach in the first place wasn't its effectiveness - it was the impact on flavors/aromas and the fact that bleach corrodes stainless at the welds.

And the flavor/aroma is what I'd be most concerned about,and probably why I haven't used it to date .


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 07:40:12 PM »
I agree. But I do rinse the crap out of it and use starsan after. I don't pick up even a hint of bleach. Again, only once or twice a year for me.
Jon H.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 07:45:54 PM »
With the advent of the better bottle, I use stuff that doesn't hurt that plastic:

http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html?=b-b_cleaning_right.html

For stainless and counter flow chiller I CIP using PBW at the rates on the jug.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 07:59:02 PM »
I agree. But I do rinse the crap out of it and use starsan after. I don't pick up even a hint of bleach. Again, only once or twice a year for me.

yeah im sure its fine-probably will do it at some point.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 08:32:55 PM »
FWIW Clorox says:

Sippy Cups
To Clean & Sanitize: Mix 2 tsp of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per gallon of water. Soak pre-washed cups for 2 minutes. Drain and air dry

so thats about 1.66 ounces in 5-gallons. apparently optimal water for chlorine effectiveness would be 38F and 6.5-7PH

edit: is that 26PPM? im not great at this kind of math  :-\
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 08:49:02 PM by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Ger Pils
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2014, 09:11:55 PM »
so not questioning your practices-but i guess that's my dilemma based upon some readings. low dosage (a few tablespoons per 5 gal at best sanitizes and doesn't disinfect..im no expert but that's what im reading. for disinfection i see 1/4 cup minimum per gallon with 2-3 minute contact time-and that seems problematic with plastic equipment and being able to remove residual chlorine on the equipment.

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is powerful stuff.  Sodium hypochlorite will disinfect at low concentrations.  It just takes longer to do so.   One tablespoon per gallon provides approximately 200 ppm chlorine.  There are four tablespoons in a 1/4 cup; hence, a quarter cup per gallon provides 800 ppm chlorine, which is extreme overkill.  The maximum suggested ppm value per gallon for disinfecting equipment that will come into contact with food is 200 ppm.  Three tablespoons per five gallons provides approximatley 600 / 5 = 125 ppm, which will also get the job done as long as the equipment is free of food residue and dirt.

https://www.healthunit.com/uploads/mixing-of-bleach.pdf


With that said, the threat from chlorine residue is completely overblown.  The folklore comes from people who dumped a cup or more of bleach into five gallons of water.  At that level, it will be difficult to remove the chlorine smell from any plastic item by rinsing alone.   I used bleach as my only sanitizer for over a decade. I never had any off-flavors that could be attributed to using bleach as a sanitizer because I used it properly.  I also never experienced the persistent low-level spice problem that I have experienced since switching to Star San as my primary sanitizer.  I have noticed that many of the beers that I have judged over that last year suffer from the same problem (I am so sensitive to phenolic spice that I cannot enjoy Hefeweizen or many of the Belgian styles).  It finally dawned on me that the abandonment of bleach in favor of Star San may be the source of the problem, which is why I started to study the differences in modes of operation between the two sanitizers. 

Bleach is a more effective sanitizer than Star San because its mode of operation is non-selective. Bleach also denatures spores and viruses.  If we were to compared Star San and bleach to herbicides, Star San would 2,4-D (the active ingredient in Weed-B-Gon) and bleach would be glyphosate (a.k.a Roundup).  Weed-B-Gon is effective against broadleaf plants.  The only plants that Roundup does not kill are the GMO crops Monsanto created that are resistant to glyphosate.

From http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/disinfection_sterilization/6_0disinfection.html

"Chlorine and Chlorine Compounds

Overview.  Hypochlorites, the most widely used of the chlorine disinfectants, are available as liquid (e.g., sodium hypochlorite) or solid (e.g., calcium hypochlorite). The most prevalent chlorine products in the United States are aqueous solutions of 5.25%–6.15% sodium hypochlorite (see glossary), usually called household bleach. They have a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity, do not leave toxic residues, are unaffected by water hardness, are inexpensive and fast acting 328, remove dried or fixed organisms and biofilms from surfaces 465, and have a low incidence of serious toxicity 515-517.  Sodium hypochlorite at the concentration used in household bleach (5.25-6.15%) can produce ocular irritation or oropharyngeal, esophageal, and gastric burns 318, 518-522.  Other disadvantages of hypochlorites include corrosiveness to metals in high concentrations (>500 ppm), inactivation by organic matter, discoloring or "bleaching" of fabrics, release of toxic chlorine gas when mixed with ammonia or acid (e.g., household cleaning agents) 523-525, and relative stability 327.  The microbicidal activity of chlorine is attributed largely to undissociated hypochlorous acid (HOCl). The dissociation of HOCI to the less microbicidal form (hypochlorite ion OCl¯) depends on pH. The disinfecting efficacy of chlorine decreases with an increase in pH that parallels the conversion of undissociated HOCI to OCl¯ 329, 526.  A potential hazard is production of the carcinogen bis(chloromethyl) ether when hypochlorite solutions contact formaldehyde 527 and the production of the animal carcinogen trihalomethane when hot water is hyperchlorinated 528.  After reviewing environmental fate and ecologic data, EPA has determined the currently registered uses of hypochlorites will not result in unreasonable adverse effects to the environment 529."

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Re: shocking my system
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 09:18:14 PM »
the fact that bleach corrodes stainless at the welds.

That's only true at chlorine levels greater than 500 ppm.