[DW]

How does this look?  I downloaded it from another forum:---If this is good, how would I convert this to extract?

OG: 1.073
FG: 1.021
IBU: 22 SRM: 30
ABV: 6.7%

10.2 lbs Pilsner malt
2.33 lbs Munich malt (10oL)
2.33 lbs Munich malt (20oL)
0.5 lbs Dehusked Carafa II

1.5 oz. Hallertau 4% AA (60 min)
1 tsp Irish moss

WY2206 (Bavarian Lager) or WLP820 (Octoberfest/Marzen) (4 qt./4 L starter)

[klickitat jim]

I use carafa 2 special frequently. 8 oz seems like a bunch. Its touted as not having any roastiness but at a half pound im certain it will. If you are cool with that, awesome

[majorvices]

I'd be a bit surprised if this was the actual clone recipe. My guess is the ratio would favor a majority of munich as basemalt, not pils.  Celebrator is rather dark but that may be a touch too much carafa special.

Converting to extract may be a bit more challenging. The key is going to find Munich extract. Once upon a time one of the big online retailers (either MoreBeer or NorthernBrewer) was carrying Munich extract - and if you can find that, then converting to extract will be pretty easy.

I would simply either follow the ratios Munich to Extra Pale (use DME for the extra pale) or do a mini mash of Munich malt (but throw a half pound of pils in there as well, for the enymes).

[klickitat jim]

Good idea. Actually 11 lbs of liquid munich malt extract should get you about 1.070 in 5.5 gallons final volume. You could steep 4 oz of milled carafa in one of those gallons to get your color up. It sounds too easy but I think youd be surprized. If you are worried about all that extract not attenuating out maybe go with 9 lbs munich LME and a pound and a half of good old fashioned sugar. I might round the hops up to 2 oz just to be safe too.

[Iliff Ave]

I agree that 1/2 carafa seems like a lot. Why not use the 1/3# chocolate that is called for in the clone recipe below? This gets you closer as far as the extract is concerned.

(5 gallons/19 L, extract with grains)
OG = 1.073 FG = 1.021
IBU = 22 SRM = 30 ABV = 6.7%

2.75 lbs. (1.25 kg) Laaglander Light dried malt extract
5.33 lbs. (2.42 kg) Weyermann Bavarian Dunkel liquid malt extract (late addition)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (10 °L)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (20 °L)
0.33 lbs. (0.15 kg) chocolate malt
6 AAU Hallertau hops (60 mins) (1.5 oz./42 g of 4% alpha acids)
1 tsp Irish moss
Wyeast 2206 (Bavarian Lager) or White Labs WLP820 (Octoberfest/Märzen) yeast (4 qt./4 L yeast starter)
0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)

[DW]

Good idea. Actually 11 lbs of liquid munich malt extract should get you about 1.070 in 5.5 gallons final volume. You could steep 4 oz of milled carafa in one of those gallons to get your color up. It sounds too easy but I think youd be surprized. If you are worried about all that extract not attenuating out maybe go with 9 lbs munich LME and a pound and a half of good old fashioned sugar. I might round the hops up to 2 oz just to be safe too.

Are you saying that extract will not ferment out as well as all grain?

[DW]

I agree that 1/2 carafa seems like a lot. Why not use the 1/3# chocolate that is called for in the clone recipe below? This gets you closer as far as the extract is concerned.

(5 gallons/19 L, extract with grains)
OG = 1.073 FG = 1.021
IBU = 22 SRM = 30 ABV = 6.7%

2.75 lbs. (1.25 kg) Laaglander Light dried malt extract
5.33 lbs. (2.42 kg) Weyermann Bavarian Dunkel liquid malt extract (late addition)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (10 °L)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (20 °L)
0.33 lbs. (0.15 kg) chocolate malt
6 AAU Hallertau hops (60 mins) (1.5 oz./42 g of 4% alpha acids)
1 tsp Irish moss
Wyeast 2206 (Bavarian Lager) or White Labs WLP820 (Octoberfest/Märzen) yeast (4 qt./4 L yeast starter)
0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)

I saw this recipe also but don't know where I'd find the Laaglander DME or the WEyermann Bavarian Dunkel LME?

[Iliff Ave]

I agree that 1/2 carafa seems like a lot. Why not use the 1/3# chocolate that is called for in the clone recipe below? This gets you closer as far as the extract is concerned.

(5 gallons/19 L, extract with grains)
OG = 1.073 FG = 1.021
IBU = 22 SRM = 30 ABV = 6.7%

2.75 lbs. (1.25 kg) Laaglander Light dried malt extract
5.33 lbs. (2.42 kg) Weyermann Bavarian Dunkel liquid malt extract (late addition)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (10 °L)
1.33 lbs. (0.6 kg) Munich malt (20 °L)
0.33 lbs. (0.15 kg) chocolate malt
6 AAU Hallertau hops (60 mins) (1.5 oz./42 g of 4% alpha acids)
1 tsp Irish moss
Wyeast 2206 (Bavarian Lager) or White Labs WLP820 (Octoberfest/Märzen) yeast (4 qt./4 L yeast starter)
0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)

I saw this recipe also but don't know where I'd find the Laaglander DME or the WEyermann Bavarian Dunkel LME?

Yeah I think the key is to find the appropriate subs. It looks like any light dry malt extract would work for the laaglander and try to find some munich liquid extract for the Weyermann?

I found this but have no idea if it would be a good choice or not

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/munich-malt-extract-syrup-maillard-malts.html

[majorvices]

Extract notoriously does not achieve as high attenuation as all grain. Part of it may be the lack if free amino nitrogen in the extract, part of it may be the extracting process itself produces a less fermentable wort (do you have any idea what temp they mash the extract wort at? Probably not.) whatever the case supping some sugar out for some if the extract will help the beer attenuate better. IMO it is also always a good idea to do a mini mash. First off, it is easy. Second, it will help add back some of the missing FAN.

[denny]

Are you saying that extract will not ferment out as well as all grain?

That's usually the case because extract is seldom all base malt.  In addition, you have no idea what temp the mash was dome at when the extract was made.

[denny]

Yeah I think the key is to find the appropriate subs. It looks like any light dry malt extract would work for the laaglander and try to find some munich liquid extract for the Weyermann?

I found this but have no idea if it would be a good choice or not

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/munich-malt-extract-syrup-maillard-malts.html

Laaglander, which AFAIK is no longer made, was notorious for being highly unfermentable.

[pete b]

I wonder if any maltsters will start making specialty malts with varying degrees of fermentability and more information. For instance " light extract made from 100% Belgian pilsner malt mashed at low temperatures for maximum fermentability"

[Joe Sr.]

IMO it is also always a good idea to do a mini mash. First off, it is easy. Second, it will help add back some of the missing FAN.

100% agreement.

I wonder if any maltsters will start making specialty malts with varying degrees of fermentability and more information. For instance " light extract made from 100% Belgian pilsner malt mashed at low temperatures for maximum fermentability"

I don't know if they have the more information part down, but I've found Breiss Pilsen DME to be highly fermentable and very light in color (I do 100% late addition, since I'm mashing 5+ lbs of grain). 

The caveat here is that per Martin Brungard's analysis the water they use at Breiss is very high in sodium and that will carry through to their extract.  This hasn't caused issues for me (of which I am aware) but its a data point to consider.

[erockrph]

The hard part to replicate in an extract brew is going to be the Dark Munich malt. It has a characteristic flavor that I think is an important piece in cloning Celebrator. If you can mini-mash the dark Munich with a pound or two of Pils malt, you will get a lot closer.

I also agree on swapping the Carafa for Chocolate malt. Celebrator does seem to have a touch of roast to my palate. My recent doppelbock is based on Celebrator. I ended up using Black Patent for my color malt. I found that it was darker than I hoped, and also has no roast character. Next time around I'm going to use Pale Chocolate, which I feel gives more roast for the same level of color than a darker roast malt.

[hopfenundmalz]

I would recemend WLP 833 which most authorities say came from Ayinger. It makes a really nice malty lager.