Author Topic: Question regarding water  (Read 1719 times)

Offline AnimALE

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Question regarding water
« on: November 18, 2014, 06:36:33 PM »
Hello everyone..I am just starting to get into water chemistry..I am using bru'n water spreadsheet....I am brewing a amber lager style beer this sunday..I am gonna use distilled water and treat with calcium chloride..according to bru'n water 2.3 grams of calcium chloride in the mash and 3.1 grams in the sparge water   will give me  54ppm of calcium and my chloride to 95.6 ppm the rest of the ions are zero..My cations to anions is 2.7 to 2.7..I am looking to have a balanced profile in the beer..I am a noob when it comes to water chemistry so if someone can tell me if this makes sense or if something is off..There is a bit of learning with this bru'n water

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2014, 06:38:31 PM »
assuming that get's your pH where you need it it sound fine.

When I do a marzen I add some gypsum (Can't remember the actual amounts) becuase I think that a dry, crisp finish is ideal for those styles. Plenty of munich malt will get you the malty character you want but the sulfate will help with the crisp finish. FWIW
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2014, 06:39:36 PM »
Hello everyone..I am just starting to get into water chemistry..I am using bru'n water spreadsheet....I am brewing a amber lager style beer this sunday..I am gonna use distilled water and treat with calcium chloride..according to bru'n water 2.3 grams of calcium chloride in the mash and 3.1 grams in the sparge water   will give me  54ppm of calcium and my chloride to 95.6 ppm the rest of the ions are zero..My cations to anions is 2.7 to 2.7..I am looking to have a balanced profile in the beer..I am a noob when it comes to water chemistry so if someone can tell me if this makes sense or if something is off..There is a bit of learning with this bru'n water

might want to to get some of your calcium out of gypsum additions so you can keep your chloride levels down.... generally less than 100pmm
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Offline AnimALE

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2014, 06:45:56 PM »
I was thinking i might need some sulfates but i heard some where that sulfates will give the noble hops a harsh character..Is there any truth in that or just nonsense?

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 06:47:52 PM »
I was thinking i might need some sulfates but i heard some where that sulfates will give the noble hops a harsh character..Is there any truth in that or just nonsense?
ive not experienced that and i use noble hops quite often with german lagers and ales.

id follow the amber balanced profile and see if that works for you.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 06:49:52 PM by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline AnimALE

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 06:51:19 PM »
Yeah good call thanks alot..Might take a little trial and error to get it perfect..cheers

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 06:57:10 PM »
Yeah good call thanks alot..Might take a little trial and error to get it perfect..cheers

sure thing. good thing is with distilled water, IME you're going to be pretty much where bru'nwater says you will be. presume you're monitoring PH throughout-especially when trying something new. once you have it nailed down for a recipe, not so important ans you come to expect what experience has proven.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 06:57:54 PM »
There are pull down water profiles in Brun'water that can give you an idea of what to do. You will want Amber Ballanced or Amber Malty for most lagers that I can think of off the top of my head. Look on tab 3, cell 5a.

I did a BoPils with just some CaCl2 to get to 35 ppm, and the beer tasted minerally. Martin has written about the importance of having some other flavor ions, such as Na, SO4 and even Mg to give the correct flavor profile.

As far as sulfates, it will give more of a sharp dry bitterness, which you don't want in a BoPils, but is an essential characteristic for a German Pils. I always add gypsum to get the SO4 up in my German Pils. The example above for the BoPils was to keep the SO4 out, but I should have gone with the Pilsen water profile.
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Offline AnimALE

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?

Offline AnimALE

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 07:20:32 PM »
Yeah good call thanks alot..Might take a little trial and error to get it perfect..cheers

sure thing. good thing is with distilled water, IME you're going to be pretty much where bru'nwater says you will be. presume you're monitoring PH throughout-especially when trying something new. once you have it nailed down for a recipe, not so important ans you come to expect what experience has proven.
Yup it says i will have a room temp PH of 5.4

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2014, 07:31:41 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?

You put your grain in on the mash adjustments page and that goes into the calculations done by the spreadsheet.  Like Jeff said - just adding one type of salt when dealing with some styles just doesn't do the style justice from a flavor profile.  I went to a home RO system this past spring and I am still homing in on the sweet spots between the light lagers, but I have definitely improved over my past practice of using spring water and a teaspoon of CaCl.  Always track pH and you will have decent beer, I am just trying to get to where some of these guys are at, which is consistently exceptional beers.  Time and patience, repetition and controlled environment, ingredients and yeast pitch are the keys for me.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 08:09:20 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?

IME you typically dont need to worry as much about magnesium...but yes using some epsom salt gives both sulfate and mg-so its easy to account for.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2014, 08:21:30 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?
I think it depends on the style. The malt does supply Mg, enough for yeast health. The yeast will take up Mg, then what? You may not have enough for the flavor it gives - it is known as Bittersalz in German. Some of the ions can be pretty low, but work to give a certain taste.
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Offline AnimALE

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 10:35:58 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?
I think it depends on the style. The malt does supply Mg, enough for yeast health. The yeast will take up Mg, then what? You may not have enough for the flavor it gives - it is known as Bittersalz in German. Some of the ions can be pretty low, but work to give a certain taste.

So if i wanted to use epsom for flavor i can just add it in the kettle instead of the mash correct?

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Re: Question regarding water
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2014, 11:02:38 PM »
Correct me if im wrong but doesn't the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?
I think it depends on the style. The malt does supply Mg, enough for yeast health. The yeast will take up Mg, then what? You may not have enough for the flavor it gives - it is known as Bittersalz in German. Some of the ions can be pretty low, but work to give a certain taste.

So if i wanted to use epsom for flavor i can just add it in the kettle instead of the mash correct?

yes and it adds the sulfate -70ppm per teaspoon in 5 gallons
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest