Author Topic: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma  (Read 5280 times)

Offline Kaiser

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Though this is not my article the mashing schedule, which was outlined in the article, is something that I knew about for a few years now. So far I haven’t gotten around to trying it myself and thus haven’t written about it yet.

Unfortunately the author, Michael Elder, was only able to spend a few paragraphs on how that particular mash works.  So let me add a few points. It was first proposed by Markus Hermann in his Dissertation in 2005. The idea was to find a mashing schedule that can increase the ester production such that even the ester suppressing fermentation conditions of tall conicals can create ester dominated Weissbiers. As a result this mashing scheme is not really something that home brewers can benefit from since we don’t have a problem with ester suppression in our comparatively shallow fermenters. But it’s worth a try for the geek factor and I plan to do so in the near future.  It is also a practical mashing schedule where we actually mash down and then up again.

Kai

Offline denny

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 08:46:06 AM »
Not being a wheat beer fan, I skipped that article.  Sounds like I need to look it over for the technical info, though.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 08:53:05 AM »
Not being a wheat beer fan, I skipped that article.  Sounds like I need to look it over for the technical info, though.

I knew what it would be about after I read the title. As a result I read that article first.

I'm not a big fan of fruit beers which is why most of the other articles didn't have much of my interest :D

Kai

Offline babalu87

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 09:16:24 AM »
I might geek out on it Saturday
Brewing a Hefeweizen

Denny, between the fruit beers and wheat beers did you just throw that one in the recycle bin  ;D
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline denny

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 09:37:36 AM »
Denny, between the fruit beers and wheat beers did you just throw that one in the recycle bin  ;D

Well, I have to admit there weren't as many "must read" articles as I usually find!  But Kai's post just goes to show that by assuming I wasn't interested, I may have missed out on some technical info that might be useful in other situations.  Damn my prejudices!  :)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 09:47:03 AM »
Well, I have to admit there weren't as many "must read" articles as I usually find!  But Kai's post just goes to show that by assuming I wasn't interested, I may have missed out on some technical info that might be useful in other situations.  Damn my prejudices!  :)

That's why I started this thread. Others may have skipped it as well assuming that it was just another Weissbier article.

Kai

Offline bluesman

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 10:06:32 AM »
Thanks for pointing this out Kai. I haven't even started reading this issue yet but will definitely read the article now.
Ron Price

Offline pjj2ba

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 07:07:38 PM »
Not just for wheat beers!  I can see this having applications in some Belgian styles.  Could one mash this way and get more esters while fermenting at a slightly lower temperature?  This would help to limit fusel alcohol production in bigger beers, while still promoting ester formation

I've always wondered if this is another benefit from Belgian styles using sugar, particularly glucose.  The extra glucose not only helps the beer dry out, but can also promote ester formation

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 09:56:35 AM »
I've always wondered if this is another benefit from Belgian styles using sugar, particularly glucose.  The extra glucose not only helps the beer dry out, but can also promote ester formation

I don't think that the glucode produced with this mashing schedule will dry out the beer the same way added corn sugar does. The corn sugar addition dilutes the nitrogen in the wort while the Hermann mash does not.

Kai

Offline pjj2ba

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 09:08:04 PM »
My comment is actually more about Belgian beers.  I definitely wouldn't want to dry a wheat beer out!  The point I'm intrigued with the fact that the mantra about adding sugar is that it results in a drier beer.  BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

I'll be brewing a wheat beer in the next month.  I think I'll give the Hermann mash a try.

Offline uthristy

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 07:49:53 AM »
BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

Its more than just glucose sugar>

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp

Offline pjj2ba

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2010, 07:37:02 PM »
BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

Its more than just glucose sugar>

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp

Which suggests even more that the Belgians appreciate the differences that different sugars give to the finished product, beyond resulting in a beer with a dry finish

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 07:44:57 AM »
I brewed a Weissbier using said maltase- or Hermann mash last night. I started at 5:30p and was able to pitch at 12:00a. The mash was not too difficult but the biggest pain was heating from 45C to 70C which I did with direct heat and which therefore required me to stir it for 25 min. But I expected that.

We'll see how this batch compares to the same recipe w/ a normal mash.

I did also notice that it took more acid to lower the pH of the mash to 5.5-5.6 at the end. This was actually expected since low temperature rests are known to increase the buffer capacity of the mash.

Kai

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2010, 06:13:46 PM »
It looks like this did not work for me to give me more banana aroma. I took a sample today and detect very little banana aroma compared to the control. The beer has more clove though. This is expected since the rest at 45C is also a good ferulic acid rest temp.

It might be necessary to use a more estery Weissbier yeast. I used WY3068 which is more on the phenolic side.

So I checked the dissertation which proposed this mash and found that they also used WY3068 (a.k.a. W68) but their pitching rate (~2 M/ml) was much lower than mine (~4 M/ml). In fact mine may have been even higher. I got an inexplicable discrepancy between the number of cells counted in the well mixed starter and the cells counted in the well mixed beer.

But I have read reports of this mash working as intended.

Kai
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 06:23:18 PM by Kaiser »

Offline tom

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 07:34:01 AM »
Thanks Kai.
Is 2M cells/mL the standard weissbier pitching rate?
How much do they oxygenate?
TIA, Tom
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