Author Topic: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma  (Read 5276 times)

Offline babalu87

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2010, 03:31:27 PM »
Kai, when I follow "proper" pitching rates on Hefe/Dunkelweizens with 3068 I've been disappointed.
I under pitch by a little and try not to go more than 3 generations either.

Brewing a Hefe this weekend and I'll use that mash and my pitching procedures to see what I get.
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2010, 07:49:28 PM »
Thanks Kai.
Is 2M cells/mL the standard weissbier pitching rate?
How much do they oxygenate?

The only numbers I found were 2-4 M/ml (Kunze) or 0.3 -1 l yeast slurry per 100l wort. This slurry must be much thinner than the yeast slurry for lagers which is reported to give ~15 M/ml if about 0.5 l are added to 100l wort.

I assume that it is common to aerate to saturation with air which gives you about 8 ppm O2.

Kai

Offline dean

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 12:47:45 PM »
I don't recall getting a May/June issue... what is on the cover?  Aaarghh!  Now I have to go dig through my mags....  :D

Offline dean

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 12:49:17 PM »
Yup... got it.   :)

Offline babalu87

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2010, 08:14:27 AM »
It looks like this did not work for me to give me more banana aroma. I took a sample today and detect very little banana aroma compared to the control. The beer has more clove though. This is expected since the rest at 45C is also a good ferulic acid rest temp.

It might be necessary to use a more estery Weissbier yeast. I used WY3068 which is more on the phenolic side.

So I checked the dissertation which proposed this mash and found that they also used WY3068 (a.k.a. W68) but their pitching rate (~2 M/ml) was much lower than mine (~4 M/ml). In fact mine may have been even higher. I got an inexplicable discrepancy between the number of cells counted in the well mixed starter and the cells counted in the well mixed beer.

But I have read reports of this mash working as intended.

Kai

Kai, I'll be brewing this Sunday and will follow the mash until the last rest but will then do a decoction boil to get to mash out

I'll update as the beer progresses
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline bperetto

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 08:05:35 AM »
FYI, I also followed the suggested "complicated" mash and got very little banana aroma and virtually no banana flavor.

Otherwise, it's the same grains, yeast, etc... I use with a single infusion mash where I get a lot of banana.  Something in that article just doesn't work.  I just checked the C to F figures in the article and they seem fine. I'm not sure what happened but I have something closer to an american wheat beer than a bavarian hefeweizen- even with 3086.

Offline babalu87

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 05:51:39 AM »
Holy banana Batman  :o

I'll pull a sample in the next day or two but there is a nice banana nose on this beer right now

Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline pjj2ba

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 09:26:39 PM »
I did the complicated mash too, but am using an American yeast (Safale 05).  I've gotten cloves out of this strain before.  I'm curious to see if I can get any banana (@ 65 F).  I actually "fast fermented" 2 gal of this (keg kicked already) and was surprised at how wheaty it tasted.  I'm curious to compare it to the conventional remaining 5 gal.

I'll be serving this up at our pig roast in two weeks.  If I do get banana, I'll post.  If not, no post.

Offline babalu87

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2010, 08:15:20 AM »
Banana!........ pretty intense too.

This was a split batch, one fermented in a bucket with the lid loose and one in a carboy with a tin foil airlock.
I'll know better when they are carbed up but the samples tasted the same.

Once its carbed up I'll have to get you a bottle or few Kai
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2010, 08:57:09 AM »
Once its carbed up I'll have to get you a bottle or few Kai

I have to send you mine too. So far I did not notice much more banana.

And we need to compare notes.

Kai

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2010, 07:15:51 PM »
I compared the two beers a few days ago and I preferred the one made with the more complicated mash. It had more banana and clove yet was still well balanced. Since I don't like fermenting my Weissbiers warmer than 65F, I generally don't get as many fruity notes.

It does however seem that the longer mash thinned out the mouthfeel and hurt the head retention, which was to be expected. I may be able to fix that with CaraFoam or chit malt (if I can find that).

Next time I have to retry this side-by-side and use the maltase mash first. Weissbier aromas don't stay fresh all that long and the fact that the two beers were brewed ~2 weeks apart may also be the cause for the difference.

Kai

Offline mashweasel

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 11:04:10 AM »
Depending on whether I want more banana or more clove I change my mash. You can also monkey with the yeast count and oxygen number, more of each giving less character. Low temps = more fruit, high temps = more spice.

Diauxic mash (Banana)
Mash in at 5:1
1. 86F, rest 30 min
2. Draw off 75% thin mash into boil kettle
- heat thick mash to 65C, rest 30 min
- add back
3. 104F, rest 30min (maltase)
4. 162F, 30min
5. 176F, 10min


'Schneider' mash (spice)
1. 112F x 8 min (4VG)
2. 128F x 20min
3. 144F x 15
- decoction pull, boil 10min
4. 156F x 20
5. 176 x 10min

A way to 'cheat' to get more banana is to add about 10% pure glucose directly to your fermenter. Do it side by side with one without it. Use the dry Munich strain or 3068 and you'll see for  yourself.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep

Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'

Offline Kaiser

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2010, 05:35:07 PM »
. Low temps = more fruit, high temps = more spice.

the way you mention this is interesting since most brewers report ( or maybe repeat) the opposite.

Kai

Offline mashweasel

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Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2010, 06:23:06 AM »
I've never seen brewers report the opposite although I don't say it doesn't happen. Cooler temperatures favor ester formation = fruit. Higher temps favor higher alcohol and phenol production. Thats a general statement but holds true. Yeast strain will usually have a bigger impact and the temps should be treated as relative according to the specific strain. Mean 'fruitier' than or 'spicer' than...
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep

Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'