[Wort-H.O.G.]

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This is a pretty decent overview, Ken. It'll get you started and make a pretty good cider.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/cider.pdf
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good stuff- thanks

[erockrph]

There was some great info in one of the cider talks at this year's NHC ("Navigating the Complexities of Making Great Hard Cider at Home" I think?), that goes into detail about how to make a fortified cider that you backsweeten with juice. I'd certainly check that out.

Personally, I'm just shooting for a ballpark with my initial fermentation, then adjusting the cider to taste. I shoot for 1.070-1.075 for my initial OG to get in the 9-10% range, then figure on using about 1/2-1/3 of the original volume in juice to backsweeten the stabilized cider. You can use sugar, honey or apple concentrate to fortify your initial ferment. I used apple syrup that I made from boiling down fresh-pressed cider for the batch I have in the fermenter right now. Molasses, Candi Syrup and Maple Syrup all have potential as well.

[Jimmy K]

Another at NHC this year was on post-fermentation cider adjustment. It was great live because you got a little packet with sugar, malic acid, tannin, and juice to doctor up lifeless samples of cider that they passed around. It would still be good to watch if it was recorded. All of the additions were done to taste.

[HoosierBrew]

Another at NHC this year was on post-fermentation cider adjustment. It was great live because you got a little packet with sugar, malic acid, tannin, and juice to doctor up lifeless samples of cider that they passed around. It would still be good to watch if it was recorded. All of the additions were done to taste.

That's how I do it. Get the sample just right and scale it up. It's cool to see how each thing can change the balance.

EDIT -  One of the old Brewing TV videos was a cidermaking episode with Chris Smith.  He adjusted the sample pretty much the same as posted, and I started doing that right after. Good way to get what you want.

[theDarkSide]

Another at NHC this year was on post-fermentation cider adjustment. It was great live because you got a little packet with sugar, malic acid, tannin, and juice to doctor up lifeless samples of cider that they passed around. It would still be good to watch if it was recorded. All of the additions were done to taste.

That was a great presentation...I learned a ton.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

questions- when you say sweet, what FG are we talking about.
rack every week?

This year most of my ciders finished between 1.005 and 1.010 with my methods above.  The US-05 one though is bone dry in the 0.990s.

Yes, rack often.  I prefer this over backsweetening and sorbating, where results have been more of a crapshoot.  By removing a lot of the yeast, it's a way to preserve natural sweetness from the apples.  And then if you age for a good 3-6 months (like I do), the yeast is further put to sleep and the cider is naturally stable without adding all kinds of chemicals.  Just a different way of doing things that works well for me.

I'm disappointed with my apple ale this year.  I used the wrong yeast.  Too tart and too dry.  Took 6 weeks to ferment.  Ugh.  Next time I'll use Notty.

I've tried S-04 in the past and was not impressed.  However I hear otherwise from many other cider people, so I might need to give it another try next year.  (I only make cider (and apple ale) in October when it's fresh.)

Dave -
going to brew another batch of my apple ale. this time im trying red star cote des blancs for first time. blend is 4 gal juice, 3 gal wort. any particular advice with this yeast I should know?

[dmtaylor]

Low and slow is the way to go.  I ferment my ciders in the 50s for a few months.  Rack often, about once a week, especially in the early stages.  When it hits SG=1.010, add a slurry of a teaspoon gelatin in a little hot water per 2-3 gallons for a day or two and then rack it again -- the gelatin will take out a lot of the yeast and you'll end up with a sweeter, more balanced cider.  Otherwise Cote des Blancs will take your cider all the way down to the 0.990s, very very dry and very tart.  I love this yeast, but it needs the racking and the gelatin to avoid bone dryness.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Low and slow is the way to go.  I ferment my ciders in the 50s for a few months.  Rack often, about once a week, especially in the early stages.  When it hits SG=1.010, add a slurry of a teaspoon gelatin in a little hot water per 2-3 gallons for a day or two and then rack it again -- the gelatin will take out a lot of the yeast and you'll end up with a sweeter, more balanced cider.  Otherwise Cote des Blancs will take your cider all the way down to the 0.990s, very very dry and very tart.  I love this yeast, but it needs the racking and the gelatin to avoid bone dryness.

good info thanks. i will doing the apple ale, so adding 3 gals of less fermentable 1.080 wort to 4 gals juice to end up around 1.008-1.012 hopefully.

[erockrph]

Low and slow is the way to go.  I ferment my ciders in the 50s for a few months.  Rack often, about once a week, especially in the early stages.  When it hits SG=1.010, add a slurry of a teaspoon gelatin in a little hot water per 2-3 gallons for a day or two and then rack it again -- the gelatin will take out a lot of the yeast and you'll end up with a sweeter, more balanced cider.  Otherwise Cote des Blancs will take your cider all the way down to the 0.990s, very very dry and very tart.  I love this yeast, but it needs the racking and the gelatin to avoid bone dryness.

good info thanks. i will doing the apple ale, so adding 3 gals of less fermentable 1.080 wort to 4 gals juice to end up around 1.008-1.012 hopefully.

My guess is that this may end up closer to the 1.020+ range. Wine yeast will not attenuate wort sugars very well at all. I did a similar experiment last year using Tang, DME and Lalvin 71B. Assuming it ate all the simple sugar from the Tang, the wine yeast only attenuated about 40% of the DME.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Low and slow is the way to go.  I ferment my ciders in the 50s for a few months.  Rack often, about once a week, especially in the early stages.  When it hits SG=1.010, add a slurry of a teaspoon gelatin in a little hot water per 2-3 gallons for a day or two and then rack it again -- the gelatin will take out a lot of the yeast and you'll end up with a sweeter, more balanced cider.  Otherwise Cote des Blancs will take your cider all the way down to the 0.990s, very very dry and very tart.  I love this yeast, but it needs the racking and the gelatin to avoid bone dryness.

good info thanks. i will doing the apple ale, so adding 3 gals of less fermentable 1.080 wort to 4 gals juice to end up around 1.008-1.012 hopefully.

My guess is that this may end up closer to the 1.020+ range. Wine yeast will not attenuate wort sugars very well at all. I did a similar experiment last year using Tang, DME and Lalvin 71B. Assuming it ate all the simple sugar from the Tang, the wine yeast only attenuated about 40% of the DME.

Ok wondered about that. Perhaps on my apple ale I should stick with notti or s-04....they work well.

[dmtaylor]

I love the Notty, and you will too.  That's the best way to go IMO.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I love the Notty, and you will too.  That's the best way to go IMO.

i decided to go with a straight cider  this round. is one packet of cote des blancs enough for 6 gallons? says good up to 5 so figured it would be ok for 6.

[dmtaylor]

Yeah it will be fine.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

So if I add potassium sorbate and then back sweeten,am I not able to carb in bottle?

[dmtaylor]

Sorbate doesn't kill yeast.  It only prevents them from being able to reproduce.  So, you can still carbonate naturally with sorbate.  The results are just harder to predict than normal because of the lack of reproduction.  If your fermentation time is short, they'll still be eager to carbonate, although it does take longer than for beer, maybe 4-6 weeks on average instead of just a couple weeks.  Another cautionary thing is that they might even cause gushers, and that's happened to me more than once.  But if fermentation time is long and drawn out for months like I do, then the yeast gets tired and weak and can't reproduce, so natural carbonation from priming sugar happens about 50/50 in my experience, just as often turning out flat as carbonated, and never gushers.