Author Topic: citra saison  (Read 7865 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2014, 03:46:55 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2014, 04:27:14 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.

Yes, you are probably right. I have to admit that the dessert sugar thing above is said about tripels, and the like, not about saisons.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2014, 04:30:13 pm »
DuPont

Oh, and to make sure that nobody makes any mistakes, DuPont makes kevlar, Dupont beers.  8)
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2014, 04:34:07 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.

Yes, you are probably right. I have to admit that the dessert sugar thing above is said about tripels, and the like, not about saisons.

The whole lazy yeast thing is dodgy if you ask me. with a 6.5%abv beer it's not going to be a problem. there are two good reasons to add sugar during the end of fermentation: if you are using a delicate aromatic sugar like honey and you want to preserve the aroma as much as possible adding it to the fermenter will help. And when you are making a very big beer where the added gravity from the sugar will make the starting conditions much harder for the yeast.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2014, 09:44:44 pm »
The recipe calls for 7% table sugar with 6.5% ABV. In or out?

I don't think you will need it.  As much as I like dry saison's I also prefer them to finish in the 1.004-1.008 range to have a little body in there to support the high levels of carbonation.  But that is my personal preference. 

If you do plan on adding sugar, if you add it at the beginning of the boil then your IBU calculations will be more accurate.  If you add it later in the boil (last 10 minutes) then the IBU's will be a shy bit more (which is definitely okay for a saison) simply because you removed some of the overall sugars that the hop oils and acids would be isomerizing in. 

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2014, 09:15:34 pm »
I'll be a good boy and leave the sugar in as per Drew's recipe. I'll even brew all the recipes from the book without any change whatsoever, as long as I can skip the shroom beer. Me no like shroom beer.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2014, 11:28:08 pm »
You probably just haven't tried the right kind of shrooms yet.. ;D

Offline dbeechum

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2014, 05:30:57 am »
mmmmm... citra saison - that one when done right with good citra hops is amazeballs
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2014, 09:02:20 am »
You probably just haven't tried the right kind of shrooms yet.. ;D

Maybe not, but I've tried one mushroom beer that is easily in my top 5 of worst beers ever: Desprat Tête Noire, made with "cèpes d’Auvergne". In principle they are amongst the best mushrooms in the world, and I'll gladly collect them in the woods, prepare and eat them. But in beer? "The horror! The horror!”
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2014, 03:48:49 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.

Yes, you are probably right. I have to admit that the dessert sugar thing above is said about tripels, and the like, not about saisons.

The whole lazy yeast thing is dodgy if you ask me. with a 6.5%abv beer it's not going to be a problem. there are two good reasons to add sugar during the end of fermentation: if you are using a delicate aromatic sugar like honey and you want to preserve the aroma as much as possible adding it to the fermenter will help. And when you are making a very big beer where the added gravity from the sugar will make the starting conditions much harder for the yeast.

There is actually science that supports the premise that sacc gives up the fight if you give it a wort with too much glucose. It's one reason why you can get a stalled or stuck fermentation right at the beginning. If sacc has enough glucose to consume then it won't release the enzymes to break down more complex sugars. But you really have to go wild with glucose and only glucose.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2014, 03:50:47 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.

Yes, you are probably right. I have to admit that the dessert sugar thing above is said about tripels, and the like, not about saisons.

The whole lazy yeast thing is dodgy if you ask me. with a 6.5%abv beer it's not going to be a problem. there are two good reasons to add sugar during the end of fermentation: if you are using a delicate aromatic sugar like honey and you want to preserve the aroma as much as possible adding it to the fermenter will help. And when you are making a very big beer where the added gravity from the sugar will make the starting conditions much harder for the yeast.

There is actually science that supports the premise that sacc gives up the fight if you give it a wort with too much glucose. It's one reason why you can get a stalled or stuck fermentation right at the beginning. If sacc has enough glucose to consume then it won't release the enzymes to break down more complex sugars. But you really have to go wild with glucose and only glucose.

do you have a link to something about that? I ask out of curiousity. I have done the late addition and still do when I'm using honey or maple syrup. it sounds like it's not much of an issue from our perspective but I would like to see it anyway.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2014, 03:56:28 pm »
Everybody has their perfect strategy for saisons. I wouldn't target trying to make the perfect saison off the bat because you can and should experiment to find what you love.

Personally I am not a huge fan of saisons that have been dried down to the low single digits in FG. I find them too watery and lacking in malt character. There are good very low FG saisons when you are also using brett and/or acidifying bacteria but beers with just sacc and a lot of sugar added to the kettle or fermentor are just not the same.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2014, 03:56:59 pm »
That's what people on Belgian forums say: let the hungry yeast first chew on the more complex sugars as a main course, and when they're almost done, give them the simple sugars for dessert. Not sure whether this metaphor makes any sense.

I just don't think it's necessary, especially with saison. Saison yeasts are such voracious eaters that attenuation is rarely a problem. I can get 3724 down to ~ 1.002 and 3711 easily down to 1.000 by adding the sugar to the kettle, assuming I use any. I often don't.

Yes, you are probably right. I have to admit that the dessert sugar thing above is said about tripels, and the like, not about saisons.

The whole lazy yeast thing is dodgy if you ask me. with a 6.5%abv beer it's not going to be a problem. there are two good reasons to add sugar during the end of fermentation: if you are using a delicate aromatic sugar like honey and you want to preserve the aroma as much as possible adding it to the fermenter will help. And when you are making a very big beer where the added gravity from the sugar will make the starting conditions much harder for the yeast.

There is actually science that supports the premise that sacc gives up the fight if you give it a wort with too much glucose. It's one reason why you can get a stalled or stuck fermentation right at the beginning. If sacc has enough glucose to consume then it won't release the enzymes to break down more complex sugars. But you really have to go wild with glucose and only glucose.

do you have a link to something about that? I ask out of curiousity. I have done the late addition and still do when I'm using honey or maple syrup. it sounds like it's not much of an issue from our perspective but I would like to see it anyway.

Let me see if I can find it.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 06:21:48 pm »
I have tasted my citra saison. Best beer I have ever made. I am so grateful for the recipe and the advice.
Still, one question: although the beer ended at 1002, I still seem to taste some residual sugar. And I write "seem" because I'm not even very sure it's sweet. What could that be? The wheat? The citra? Something else?
Frank P.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: citra saison
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 06:32:09 pm »
I have tasted my citra saison. Best beer I have ever made. I am so grateful for the recipe and the advice.
Still, one question: although the beer ended at 1002, I still seem to taste some residual sugar. And I write "seem" because I'm not even very sure it's sweet. What could that be? The wheat? The citra? Something else?

If you used 3711 , it leaves a fuller mouthfeel than the FG would lead you to believe.  And fruity hops like Citra, Mosaic, El Dorado,etc., definitely give the beer a fruity flavor.  I think your brain gets tricked into thinking that the fruity hop character is actual sweetness where there is none.  But it sure can seem like it. BTW, nice job, sounds good !
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 06:57:23 pm by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.