[Iliff Ave]

Mainly I am wondering what SRM to shoot for beers like a dark lager (schwarzbier) and what I am calling a "black wheat". I am trying to avoid roasted characteristics and will likely be using midnight wheat or carafa special for darkness.

I normally shoot for 30+ SRM for something like this but would like to back off any dark malts for a smoother character.  I realize this is subjective but would something closer to 25 SRM be appropriate? I don't brew many dark beers so I don't really have any experience around this SRM level.

I realize I could cold steep the dark grains, add during sparge, use sinamar, etc. but would prefer just a plain old 60 minute single infusion mash

[erockrph]

BJCP lists schwarzbier starting at 17 SRM. I just think of them as "darker than a Dunkel". Low-to-mid-20's should be fine.

[Iliff Ave]

Thanks. So if I am not mistaken, low to mid 20's will basically be brown correct? I know that traditional schwarzbiers are not really 'black' but one I really enjoy is pretty damn dark. I am going for something heavily 'schwarz' influenced although not necessarily authentic...

Thinking:
37% pilsner
54% munich
4.5% crystal 60
4.5% carafa

~28 SRM

hops TBD. 34/70 yeast

Black (brown?) wheat is something like:
40% pilsner
10% munich
45% wheat
5% midnight wheat

~25 SRM

For these examples, will keeping the dark malts at 5% or under help me to achieve limited roasted qualities?

[quattlebaum]

I am really digging Briess Blackprinz Malt over carafa it doesnt give as much roast at higher %.

1-2%   Minor color adjustment with little to no flavor impact in lighter colored lagers and ales
2-5%   Adds color with subtle, smooth flavor
5-10%   Use in larger quantities for color plus mild roasted malty flavor

[Iliff Ave]

Maybe I will give blackprinz a shot. I have used Midnight Wheat a few times with good success. Isn't blackprinz essentially the same as Dehusked Carafa (special) III?

Actually, I think my LHBS only has normal carafa malt so blackprinz might be the way to go for the dark lager and I will use midnight wheat for the dark wheat.

[HoosierBrew]

I like Midnight Wheat as well. Roast is bare minimum, with nice dark color.

[denny]

Sinamar is my go to.

[Iliff Ave]

Thanks all. Well it looks like I need to go with something huskless for around 5% and shoot for something over 25 SRM to get it dark enough for what I want.

[reverseapachemaster]

Either midnight wheat or chocolate wheat are good options. Chocolate wheat is more chocolate than roast and has more of a chocolate flavor than chocolate (barley) malt which has that real ashy taste to it.

[Iliff Ave]

According to this, Blackprinz has more roasted flavor than Midnight Wheat:

Subtle, smooth, no bitter, astringent, dry flavors or aftertaste, very delicate clean flavor,mild roasted malty flavor Bitterless black malt that can be used in any recipe calling for debittered black malt. Blackprinz® Malt delivers colors plus more roasted flavor than Midnight Wheat Malt. Good for Black IPAs SRM/Lovibond = 500L Origin: USA

[Iliff Ave]

Either midnight wheat or chocolate wheat are good options. Chocolate wheat is more chocolate than roast and has more of a chocolate flavor than chocolate (barley) malt which has that real ashy taste to it.

Interesting. I like the idea of chocolate wheat. My recent porter kind of had an 'ashy' quality to it and chocolate malt (barley) was the only dark roasted malt in the recipe.

[beersk]

I really like blackprinz and Special B in my schwarzbier, and it's killer. Something like 8oz blackprinz and 6oz Special B for 6 gallon batch. Should be in the 25SRM range.

[blatz]

I like Midnight Wheat as well. Roast is bare minimum, with nice dark color.

+1

BTW - you are going to notice, in a big way, 4.5% of carafa.

i'd personally use just enough Midnight Wheat to get you to 23-24SRM.

[Iliff Ave]

I like Midnight Wheat as well. Roast is bare minimum, with nice dark color.

+1

BTW - you are going to notice, in a big way, 4.5% of carafa.

Even if it's carafa special (dehusked)?

[blatz]

I like Midnight Wheat as well. Roast is bare minimum, with nice dark color.

+1

BTW - you are going to notice, in a big way, 4.5% of carafa.

Even if it's carafa special (dehusked)?

yeah, that's a lot.  1-2% and you will get a hint of roasty flavor.  4.5% is a lot.

to give you some perspective, I used 2oz of dehusked carafa II in a 12gal batch of vienna, and a judge (very good one at that  - Master level) picked up on the hint of roast and recommended I not use any roasted grains in the grist.

I tend to pick up on it when its at 1% or more, 2% i definitely get some flavor from it, and above that its clearly noticeable. 

The best schwarzbier's i've had often have just a hint of roastiness, just enough to flirt with your senses, but without the acrid notes you'd usually associate with a stout.