Author Topic: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew  (Read 4729 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 08:24:25 am »
I think it depends. I have done some big beers, but never huge beers. Some in the club have done huge beers with good success, the latest project came out to 20% ABV and used staged feeding of sugars later in fermentation. It turned out surprisingly drinkable.

For Belgian Tripels I have no problems with the sugar going into the boil, but that is a mere 9% ABV.

Same here. I've never made a beer over 11% IIRC and I've always added to the boil. I mash pretty low on most of those and get great attenuation.
Jon H.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 10:21:00 am »
I think it depends. I have done some big beers, but never huge beers. Some in the club have done huge beers with good success, the latest project came out to 20% ABV and used staged feeding of sugars later in fermentation. It turned out surprisingly drinkable.

For Belgian Tripels I have no problems with the sugar going into the boil, but that is a mere 9% ABV.

Same here. I've never made a beer over 11% IIRC and I've always added to the boil. I mash pretty low on most of those and get great attenuation.

My last big beer was an all malt Thomas Hardy Barleywine clone-ish beer. 1.115 OG, got down to 1.027 ish, which is pushing 13% ABV. So the yeasts used can handle that amount of malt sugars not problem, but if I were to attempt a beer in the >15% range I would be thinking of staged sugar additions along with some nutrients when adding the sugar.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 12:04:26 pm »

I add everything in the boil.  I haven't noted a significant difference between this and when I have added sugar to the secondary.

Same here.  I have found no advantages to adding it later.

Well, I have found you can get beers 3 - 5 points lower by feeding sugar after fermentation has started. And it has been my condensed after several batches of tripel. I am flabbergasted that others haven't shared this experience.

1.080 tripel sugar added to boil 148 mash temp 1.5 hours and I have gotten 1.009 normally.

By adding sugar after most if primary is finished have adult gotten 1.004-1.006 every time I have tried it.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2014, 12:38:33 pm »

I add everything in the boil.  I haven't noted a significant difference between this and when I have added sugar to the secondary.

Same here.  I have found no advantages to adding it later.

Well, I have found you can get beers 3 - 5 points lower by feeding sugar after fermentation has started. And it has been my condensed after several batches of tripel. I am flabbergasted that others haven't shared this experience.

1.080 tripel sugar added to boil 148 mash temp 1.5 hours and I have gotten 1.009 normally.

By adding sugar after most if primary is finished have adult gotten 1.004-1.006 every time I have tried it.

Something to try on the upcoming Tripel I plan on brewing.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2014, 01:09:59 pm »
Good info. I agree with the tripel plan. I like a low FG on tripel.
Jon H.

Offline majorvices

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2014, 01:02:18 am »

I add everything in the boil.  I haven't noted a significant difference between this and when I have added sugar to the secondary.

Same here.  I have found no advantages to adding it later.

Well, I have found you can get beers 3 - 5 points lower by feeding sugar after fermentation has started. And it has been my condensed after several batches of tripel. I am flabbergasted that others haven't shared this experience.

1.080 tripel sugar added to boil 148 mash temp 1.5 hours and I have gotten 1.009 normally.

By adding sugar after most if primary is finished have adult gotten 1.004-1.006 every time I have tried it.

Wow. This is why I should never post on my phone. What.The. Hell?

I think it is weird that my experience is so much difference than some others on this board. But every time I have added sugar near the end of fermentation I have gotten much lower AA. I actually I prefer my current method of adding sugar at beginning of boil before first hops go in, mainly because it's a PITA to add sugar post boil. But the attenuation I have gotten from the late feeding has always blown me away.

As the Denster would recommend "try it for yourself and see".

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2014, 09:50:01 am »
Well, I have found you can get beers 3 - 5 points lower by feeding sugar after fermentation has started. And it has been my condensed after several batches of tripel. I am flabbergasted that others haven't shared this experience.

Your findings make sense because adding sugar later in the fermentation lowers the initial osmotic pressure delta between the inside and the outside of the cell walls.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 03:04:57 pm by S. cerevisiae »

Offline erockrph

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2014, 11:52:45 am »
This is an interesting thread. I think many of us have heard of the idea that for super-high gravity beers (Samichlas, 120-minute IPA, etc.), in order to get the ABV way up there then you can use incremental feeding of sugar additions late in fermentation in order to really push the yeast to their limit. OTOH, many of us have noticed no difference between adding simple sugars in the boil versus adding them after primary has slowed down.

Major's results from his tripel is making it seem like maybe there is a gradual slope between the moderate gravity beers where late sugar additions seem to have little effect (if any), to the super high-gravity brews where it is a requirement. Somewhere in the middle, it seems like there's a point where late additions start to make more and more of a difference in attenuation.

This would be a cool experiment for an AHA grant. Compare 20% or so of the grist in table sugar added in the boil vs after primary slows down. You could try it at varying gravities to see if there's a difference in attenuation, how much it is, and if the difference changes as gravity increases.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2014, 11:54:43 am »

I add everything in the boil.  I haven't noted a significant difference between this and when I have added sugar to the secondary.

Same here.  I have found no advantages to adding it later.

Well, I have found you can get beers 3 - 5 points lower by feeding sugar after fermentation has started. And it has been my condensed after several batches of tripel. I am flabbergasted that others haven't shared this experience.

1.080 tripel sugar added to boil 148 mash temp 1.5 hours and I have gotten 1.009 normally.

By adding sugar after most if primary is finished have adult gotten 1.004-1.006 every time I have tried it.

That's entirely possible, and I won't refute your experience.  I just haven't seen the need for the extra work to gain a couple of gravity points.

I checked my last two batches that had significant sugar additions.  One an old ale and the other a saison.

I know saison yeasts are their own world, so maybe not 100% applicable but the old ale was fermented with Notty/Windsor.  Saison went from 1.064 to 1.004 which i am happy with.  The old ale attenuated further than i wanted or expected and went from 1.094 to 1.008.  Both batches had cane sugar at 16% of the recipe by Beersmith 2 calculations.  I'm not looking for more attenuation, and in the case of the old ale I would have preferred less.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2014, 01:46:21 pm »
After looking at my notes, I've actually done incremental feeding three times. The first 2 times (tripel 1.008 FG, quad 1.012FG) weren't much out of line with what I had gotten with sugars in the boil. I used 3787 on both of these. But the third time was last year when I made the 3724 saison fermented at 90F per the Wyeast info sent to Amanda. That one hit 1.006 in 8 days, 1.002 FG in 12 days. I attributed this performance to the warmer fermentation temps, deservedly so to a big extent. But every other saison I'd made with 3724 finished 1.004-1.006. So with this strain, I feel the low mash temp (147-148F), warm fermentation, and incremental feeding might be part of the puzzle to getting the strain to attenuate well AND quickly. WY1762 (my favorite for Dubbel and Quad) seems like another strain that might benefit from incremental feeding, as it occasionally finishes a tad higher than I want, in spite of grist and mash temp changes. Think I'll revisit the idea.  Good thread.

Jon H.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2014, 02:35:11 pm »
Do like me. Simply forget to add the sugar during the boil. You'll be glad to be able to add it during fermentation.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2014, 02:53:46 pm »
Do like me. Simply forget to add the sugar during the boil. You'll be glad to be able to add it during fermentation.

Done that.  Several times.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2014, 02:54:52 pm »
Do like me. Simply forget to add the sugar during the boil. You'll be glad to be able to add it during fermentation.
:)

I must admit, I've had more than my fair share of beers that came in inexplicably low on the OG, only to realize I never added my sugar to the boil.
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Offline bboy9000

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2014, 09:16:18 pm »




I actually I prefer my current method of adding sugar at beginning of boil before first hops go in, mainly because it's a PITA to add sugar post boil.

Not a PITA to add it.  Just dump it in the fermentor.
Brian
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Offline erockrph

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Re: when to add sugars in a high gravity brew
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2014, 06:31:58 am »

I actually I prefer my current method of adding sugar at beginning of boil before first hops go in, mainly because it's a PITA to add sugar post boil.

Not a PITA to add it.  Just dump it in the fermentor.

+1 - it may not be instant, but will all dissolve soon enough and the yeast will get to it in time
Eric B.

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