Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: spices/flavorings for dark beers  (Read 6142 times)

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 10:46:01 am »
Not to go too far off topic, but here's a specific dosing recommendation I've found for whole licorice root (from http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21674 )

Quote
Current evidence indicates that individuals who wish to take whole licorice on a long-term basis without any risk of these side effects should not consume more than 0.2 mg of glycyrrhizin per kilogram of body weight daily. 20 For a person who weighs 130 pounds, this works out to 12 mg of glycyrrhizin daily. Based on a typical 4% glycyrrhizin content, this is the equivalent of 0.3 grams of licorice root.

For a spicing rate one 1 ounce of licorice root per 5 gallons of beer (recommendated use based on http://morebeer.com/products/licorice-root-2-oz.html ), that amounts to 7 ounces per day of the finished beer. Double that if you only use 1/2 ounce per gallon. Keep in mind that this is the recommended max for long-term use. For short-term use, doses could be as high as 15 grams.

As a pharmacist, when I see this data I'd have no problems having a pint or two of a beer made with licorice root. Knowing my own drinking habits, I wouldn't even have a problem using it as an ingredient in something like an RIS that I would only have every so often. I don't think I'd want to put it in my session porter that I drink a few pints of at a time, though.

And as far as flavor goes, it's definitely not the same thing as star anise. Don't let the "licorice" name confuse things. It doesn't really taste like black licorice.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4150
  • Barre, Ma
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2014, 10:51:56 am »
Just putting the info out there, Pete.  Doctors are aware of the possible issue, so I assume that they can discern the dangers big or small. Nobody would likely eat that many licorice sticks every day, but what would the equivalent amount of licorice root be, especially in a keg you drink from most every day ? Personally I think something like star anise could give similar flavors and be safer. You can brew with what you like, no arguments.
I know Jon, good intentions. I just noticed the info seemed to be accepted as gospel because there were some official looking links so wanted to question it a bit. And I don't think the amount in beer would be a problem unless you put it i9n all your beers and drank it all the time.
BTW the benefit of licorice root in beer isn't in my mind the anise taste, that's minimal if at all perceivable. Its the mouthfeel and perceived sweetness without the fermentable sugar.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline case thrower

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • NE Ohio
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2014, 11:00:01 am »
I used licorice root a time or two before in stout, but it might be a really good idea to leave it out. There have been studies done in the last year or two linking it to heart arrhythmias that have landed people in the hospital. One link is from the FDA, the other from the Cleveland Clinic. And I realize there have been studies done that showed other substances could MAYBE be harmful if you ate/drank 3 tons of it every day for 100 years, but the potentially dangerous amount here is actually pretty small. Not worth the risk to me.

http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm277152.htm

http://health.clevelandclinic.org/2013/11/how-black-licorice-can-make-your-heart-jump/


EDIT  -  I work in a hospital where I've heard doctors talk about it - it made me curious because I had brewed with licorice root a time or two (as mentioned), so I researched it.
I’m still very comfortable recommending using licorice root in beer. I don’t know if its our society or humans in general who are so bad at assessing risk. Things like this remind me of people who won’t fly because of the fear of terrorism but will drive on the highway at 80 MPH every day with no seatbelt. Our decisions are totally based on fear rather than evidence. The same with health reporting. The two articles, even the FDA one, are clearly constructed in a way that gets them the web traffic by suggesting something ordinary is dangerous. Only later in each article is it mentioned that possible cases are “rare”  (one of these rare cases being a “licorice aficionado” who “reported that he had a problem”); and tidbits like this: “So how much is too much? The FDA says eating multiple 2-ounce bags of black licorice a day for at least two weeks is overdoing it. (That’s a lot of licorice.)”
Look, I totally understand that licorice root has medicinal qualities and as such should be taken in moderation, and possibly not at all if you have heart problems and a poor diet that results in potassium deficiencies. But quite frankly if you are eating that much licorice I would be way more concerned about that amount of sugar you consume  and if you are drinking enough beer with licorice root (if that’s even possible)  to be a problem I still would be more concerned about a drunken tumble down the cellar stairs. 


Just putting the info out there, Pete.  Doctors are aware of the possible issue, so I assume that they can discern the dangers big or small. Nobody would likely eat that many licorice sticks every day, but what would the equivalent amount of licorice root be, especially in a keg you drink from most every day ? Personally I think something like star anise could give similar flavors and be safer. You can brew with what you like, no arguments.

Actually, I think both of you are right.  On one hand, there are substances that under no circumstances should be in anything we consume.  For example, arsenic.  Nobody would consider using that.  On the other hand, there are things that for a overwhelming majority of people pose absolutely no risk whatsoever, but for the tiniest sliver of the population could pose severe problems.  You could hand me an Flying Dog Oyster Stout and I'd turn you down so fast your head would spin.  I can't eat shellfish.  There was a thread here a couple of years ago relating to grapefruit and its interaction with certain medications.  I think the best course would be to brew what you want but make sure that if anyone else is drinking it you alert them to any 'out of the ordinary' ingredients.  With that said, I can't wait to see the licorice oyster grapefruit white stout and/or black pilsner recipe I'm sure someone will post. ;D
Dave C.

Woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer.
The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2014, 11:00:33 am »
seems like licorice root and heart palpitations could be like a host of other herbs and such that may be problematic for certain people. might not be an issue for those not sensitive to these type of stimulants. my personally, i cant have anything with ginseng because it makes me feel like i can feel my hair growing.....tweaks me out.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Stevie

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6858
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2014, 11:49:22 am »
Wasn't there talks recently regarding regulating what needed to be included on a label to prevent such issues?

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4150
  • Barre, Ma
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2014, 11:51:21 am »

Actually, I think both of you are right.  On one hand, there are substances that under no circumstances should be in anything we consume.  For example, arsenic.  Nobody would consider using that.  On the other hand, there are things that for a overwhelming majority of people pose absolutely no risk whatsoever, but for the tiniest sliver of the population could pose severe problems.  You could hand me an Flying Dog Oyster Stout and I'd turn you down so fast your head would spin.  I can't eat shellfish.  There was a thread here a couple of years ago relating to grapefruit and its interaction with certain medications.  I think the best course would be to brew what you want but make sure that if anyone else is drinking it you alert them to any 'out of the ordinary' ingredients.  With that said, I can't wait to see the licorice oyster grapefruit white stout and/or black pilsner recipe I'm sure someone will post. ;D
There's actually quite a bit of arsenic in rice. I'd rather have the licorice. But again, you just don't have too much.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4150
  • Barre, Ma
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2014, 12:18:23 pm »
Not to go too far off topic, but here's a specific dosing recommendation I've found for whole licorice root (from http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21674 )

Quote
Current evidence indicates that individuals who wish to take whole licorice on a long-term basis without any risk of these side effects should not consume more than 0.2 mg of glycyrrhizin per kilogram of body weight daily. 20 For a person who weighs 130 pounds, this works out to 12 mg of glycyrrhizin daily. Based on a typical 4% glycyrrhizin content, this is the equivalent of 0.3 grams of licorice root.

For a spicing rate one 1 ounce of licorice root per 5 gallons of beer (recommendated use based on http://morebeer.com/products/licorice-root-2-oz.html ), that amounts to 7 ounces per day of the finished beer. Double that if you only use 1/2 ounce per gallon. Keep in mind that this is the recommended max for long-term use. For short-term use, doses could be as high as 15 grams.

As a pharmacist, when I see this data I'd have no problems having a pint or two of a beer made with licorice root. Knowing my own drinking habits, I wouldn't even have a problem using it as an ingredient in something like an RIS that I would only have every so often. I don't think I'd want to put it in my session porter that I drink a few pints of at a time, though.

And as far as flavor goes, it's definitely not the same thing as star anise. Don't let the "licorice" name confuse things. It doesn't really taste like black licorice.
Sadly, the benefit of licorice root would be much more for the session porter as it would increase the perception of the malt and balance the roastiness. It might make a RIS seem cloying.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline case thrower

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • NE Ohio
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2014, 04:19:21 pm »

Actually, I think both of you are right.  On one hand, there are substances that under no circumstances should be in anything we consume.  For example, arsenic.  Nobody would consider using that.  On the other hand, there are things that for a overwhelming majority of people pose absolutely no risk whatsoever, but for the tiniest sliver of the population could pose severe problems.  You could hand me an Flying Dog Oyster Stout and I'd turn you down so fast your head would spin.  I can't eat shellfish.  There was a thread here a couple of years ago relating to grapefruit and its interaction with certain medications.  I think the best course would be to brew what you want but make sure that if anyone else is drinking it you alert them to any 'out of the ordinary' ingredients.  With that said, I can't wait to see the licorice oyster grapefruit white stout and/or black pilsner recipe I'm sure someone will post. ;D
There's actually quite a bit of arsenic in rice. I'd rather have the licorice. But again, you just don't have too much.

Wow!  I guess that explains a lot of things about the things I do and say.  I love rice!  I guess too much. 

So let me try again.  I might use cardamom seeds, but I would never use rat poison in a beer.  If and when I did use cardamom seeds, I would be sure to let anyone I give that beer to know that there cardamom seeds were used in the production of that beer.  Just as I would hope that anyone giving me an oyster stout would let me know that oysters were used to make that beer.  In either case, the extra ingredient would probably not affect 99.99% of the people, but I would hate to be the .01% that it did or to have made the beer that affected that .01%.
Dave C.

Woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer.
The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4150
  • Barre, Ma
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2014, 07:24:56 am »

Actually, I think both of you are right.  On one hand, there are substances that under no circumstances should be in anything we consume.  For example, arsenic.  Nobody would consider using that.  On the other hand, there are things that for a overwhelming majority of people pose absolutely no risk whatsoever, but for the tiniest sliver of the population could pose severe problems.  You could hand me an Flying Dog Oyster Stout and I'd turn you down so fast your head would spin.  I can't eat shellfish.  There was a thread here a couple of years ago relating to grapefruit and its interaction with certain medications.  I think the best course would be to brew what you want but make sure that if anyone else is drinking it you alert them to any 'out of the ordinary' ingredients.  With that said, I can't wait to see the licorice oyster grapefruit white stout and/or black pilsner recipe I'm sure someone will post. ;D
There's actually quite a bit of arsenic in rice. I'd rather have the licorice. But again, you just don't have too much.

Wow!  I guess that explains a lot of things about the things I do and say.  I love rice!  I guess too much. 

So let me try again.  I might use cardamom seeds, but I would never use rat poison in a beer.  If and when I did use cardamom seeds, I would be sure to let anyone I give that beer to know that there cardamom seeds were used in the production of that beer.  Just as I would hope that anyone giving me an oyster stout would let me know that oysters were used to make that beer.  In either case, the extra ingredient would probably not affect 99.99% of the people, but I would hate to be the .01% that it did or to have made the beer that affected that .01%.
Totally agree. I have been breaking out in hives when I eat beef, pork, and lamb for the past year sop I have to make sure I know what's in things now myself.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline Delo

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2014, 09:00:17 am »
Totally agree. I have been breaking out in hives when I eat beef, pork, and lamb for the past year sop I have to make sure I know what's in things now myself.

Not to derail this thread….I don’t post here too often but reading your post made we wonder if you are aware that a tick bite from a lonestar tick can cause you to develop an allergy to red meat. I know some people who went into anaphylactic shock and that’s how I found out about it.  It can happen hours after eating meat and it seems to happen out of nowhere.  It can get worse or you can "outgrow" it.  It doesnt happen with chicken or fish, only mammal meat. There has been more about it in the news recently, but I’m not sure how widespread it has been.  This scares the crap out of me. Winding up in the hospital hours after eating a delicious bacon cheeseburger because you couldnt breath. Just an fyi for you or anyone else that hasn’t heard. 
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20140813/tick-bites-red-meat-allergy
Mark

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4508
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2014, 09:22:59 am »
Now I know to avoid using ticks and possibly licorice root ;)
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Adjunct Vienna, Golden Stout, Honey Lager
Fermenting: IPA
Up Next: mexi lager, Germerican pale ale

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2014, 09:25:13 am »
Now I know to avoid using ticks and possibly licorice root ;)

bwahaha...that was funny. ;D
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4150
  • Barre, Ma
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2014, 09:58:51 am »
Totally agree. I have been breaking out in hives when I eat beef, pork, and lamb for the past year sop I have to make sure I know what's in things now myself.

Not to derail this thread….I don’t post here too often but reading your post made we wonder if you are aware that a tick bite from a lonestar tick can cause you to develop an allergy to red meat. I know some people who went into anaphylactic shock and that’s how I found out about it.  It can happen hours after eating meat and it seems to happen out of nowhere.  It can get worse or you can "outgrow" it.  It doesnt happen with chicken or fish, only mammal meat. There has been more about it in the news recently, but I’m not sure how widespread it has been.  This scares the crap out of me. Winding up in the hospital hours after eating a delicious bacon cheeseburger because you couldnt breath. Just an fyi for you or anyone else that hasn’t heard. 
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20140813/tick-bites-red-meat-allergy
Thanks for the post. Although I haven't been to the doctor I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me. I have gotten the reaction every single time I have eaten mammal based meat since this past spring. I spend most of my free time outdoors March-November and get ticks on me most days and have been bitten dozens of times. I can eat turkey, duck, chicken, and fish. Its better than being gluten free so at least there's beer and bread. Fortunately I gave up factory raised meat a few years ago and since then only eat meat once or twice a month. So far I have not had an anaphylactic shock yet ??? EDIT: And don't worry, I already derailed the thread ;)
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2014, 10:01:09 am »
Totally agree. I have been breaking out in hives when I eat beef, pork, and lamb for the past year sop I have to make sure I know what's in things now myself.

Not to derail this thread….I don’t post here too often but reading your post made we wonder if you are aware that a tick bite from a lonestar tick can cause you to develop an allergy to red meat. I know some people who went into anaphylactic shock and that’s how I found out about it.  It can happen hours after eating meat and it seems to happen out of nowhere.  It can get worse or you can "outgrow" it.  It doesnt happen with chicken or fish, only mammal meat. There has been more about it in the news recently, but I’m not sure how widespread it has been.  This scares the crap out of me. Winding up in the hospital hours after eating a delicious bacon cheeseburger because you couldnt breath. Just an fyi for you or anyone else that hasn’t heard. 
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20140813/tick-bites-red-meat-allergy
Thanks for the post. Although I haven't been to the doctor I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me. I have gotten the reaction every single time I have eaten mammal based meat since this past spring. I spend most of my free time outdoors March-November and get ticks on me most days and have been bitten dozens of times. I can eat turkey, duck, chicken, and fish. Its better than being gluten free so at least there's beer and bread. Fortunately I gave up factory raised meat a few years ago and since then only eat meat once or twice a month. So far I have not had an anaphylactic shock yet ??? EDIT: And don't worry, I already derailed the thread ;)

all jokes aside, this is really an interesting subject. imagine a tick causing allergic reaction to mammal meat???
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Delo

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: spices/flavorings for dark beers
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2014, 10:52:57 am »
Now I know to avoid using ticks and possibly licorice root ;)

Let's not get carried away. I just said Lonestar ticks and I’m sure you can substitute other ticks if you have a recipe that calls for them. 
Mark