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Author Topic: starting out all grain  (Read 3081 times)

Offline Stevie

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 05:44:16 pm »
Reminds me of builders requiring folks to use their "cable company" for TV and Internet. It was all the rage 10 or so years ago at least. My cousin lived in a condo and nearly every unit had their already small balconies used up by dishes.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 05:55:27 pm »
Mine is new castle I believe. Bought from a former club prez who purchased them from a distributor. Couplers were banged up so they were scrap or keggles. Cost was more than a $50 deposit.

A lot of European kegs never get shipped back to the country origin if they are in the least bit damaged due to the cost of shipping.  Culled European kegs can be a good deal as they long do not leak or can be made to not leak.

With that said, every converted AB keg that you see on the Internet is a stolen keg.  AB does not sell kegs, and their scrappers have orders to not sell culled AB kegs.  Contrary to what a lot amateur brewers have been told, distributors and retailers do not have the right to convey ownership of kegs owned by domestic breweries.  All kegs remain the property of the brewery or leasing company whose name is embossed on the keg throughout the three-tier system. 

Offline koop3700

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2015, 07:58:08 am »
I started off at my local beer store "beers of the world" talking and befriending the employees found myself in conversation and low and behold ya we have a stack of stainless kegs we sell them to various people, brewers, body builders, ect. for the cost of the deposit 30 bucks each I walked out with the m-stars in great shape. Good luck and it pays to spend a little time getting to know people.

Offline leejoreilly

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 08:41:13 am »
The cheapest legal way to all-grain brewing involves an aluminum kettle, a cooler, and a low-cost propane stove.

You might be able to go even a little bit cheaper if you happen to have a (fairly powerful) gas stove. I brew in my kitchen in two kettles (which span my gas burners better than one large one would), and mash in a Denny cooler. Also keeps me out of the Michigan winters...

S. cerevisiae

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015, 10:06:13 am »
I started off at my local beer store "beers of the world" talking and befriending the employees found myself in conversation and low and behold ya we have a stack of stainless kegs we sell them to various people, brewers, body builders, ect. for the cost of the deposit 30 bucks each I walked out with the m-stars in great shape. Good luck and it pays to spend a little time getting to know people.

Like it or not, you are in possession of stolen property.  Only the company whose name is embossed on the keg has the right to convey ownership of a keg. Retailers are required by law to return kegs to distributors, and distributors are required by law to return kegs to their rightful owners unless the rightful owner provides written permission to dispose of a keg.  The deposit doesn't cover the replacement cost of a keg.  The replacement cost of a keg is well over $100.00 in large quantity.   Breweries and keg leasing companies do not have control over how much a retailer can charge for a keg because deposits are set at the state level. It is part of the three-tier beer distribution system that was put into place after the repeal of Prohibition.  From what I understand, breweries are lobbying congress to change the law, so that they can change how kegs are leased due to high loss rates.

With respect to misappropriating Microstar kegs.  Well, each Microstar keg theft hurts breweries that can handle the loss the least; namely, startup breweries that cannot afford to purchase kegs.  There's zero doubt in my mind that keg theft results in higher rental rates.

In the end, while the major source of keg loss in the distribution system is outright theft by thieves who sell stolen kegs for scrap, homebrewers who naively believe that a keg deposit conveys ownership are part of the problem.   There are legal ways to acquire kegs.  Breweries and leasing companies sell culled kegs from time to time.  These companies supply proof of sale in the form of a receipt or written authorization to sell in the case of a distributor (a legally culled keg will often have a stamp over the original embossment).  To the best of my knowledge, retailers are never authorized to sell kegs.  Anyone who is purchasing a keg from a third party should ask for the paperwork from the brewery or leasing company whose name is embossed on the keg that conveys ownership; otherwise, one is dealing in stolen goods.  Misappropriating a keg is a crime punishable by a fine and/or jail time. Converting a keg on which a deposit was made can be considered to be willful destruction of property, which is also punishable by a fine and/or jail time.

http://www.craftbeer.com/brewers_banter/kegs-youre-renting-not-buying


The website linked below will help anyone who has "found" a craft brewery keg return it to its rightful owner.

http://www.kegreturn.com/
 
For "found" kegs owned by a mega, contacting the mega whose name is embossed on the keg can result in the mega conveying ownership due to recovery costs, that is, if the mega is not Anheuser-Busch (AB).  As I mentioned above, AB never sells culled kegs, and the scrappers with whom they contract are not allowed to sell culled AB kegs.  I know that AB monitors Craig's List, eBay, and YouTube because I contacted them about a large AB keg sale on Craig's List. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 08:00:39 am by S. cerevisiae »

Offline Stevie

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Re: starting out all grain
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 10:14:39 am »
Is it illegal to "buy" a keg with the intent to return it as a core deposit on another keg?

Example: let's say the deposit is $50 and I find a keg for $20. Didn't the other guy simply subsidize my deposit?