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Author Topic: Bock attenuation problem  (Read 4629 times)

Offline joelv

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 07:12:01 pm »
Was this Best Malz, Weyermann or (some other maltster)? They look to be slightly different in color rating and both have two variations of Munich (Weyermann typically uses Type I and Type II, but I have seen some references to Best Malz as Munich I and Munich II)

Both should convert fine so that shouldn't be the issue. While a lower mash temperature might have been a good idea for this malt bill in a traditional bock, a higher temperature should be able to finish below 1.025.

I brewed 1.072 bock with mostly Munich I (Best Malz), 2 lbs dark Munich (the 20 L stuff), 2 lbs of Pils and some CaraMunich III and Melanoidin and it finished at 1.018 with the German Bock Lager yeast.

Rouse the yeast and keep it warm - see if that drops some off. Otherwise, if this were my issue, I would consider throwing in some fresh yeast that is actively fermenting (a small starter?) and see if that moves it at all.

Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 07:14:15 pm »
Both were Weyermann Munichs.  I raised temp and roused, will check again this weekend
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2015, 08:42:59 am »
Well, here's your problem right here. you probably mashed too high. I wouldn't have mashed higher that 152. In fact, 148 would not have been too low. And a couple pound of pils malt will help insure that you have the enzymes necessary to compete conversion and dry your beer down where you really want it.

Too many brewers make the mistake in thinking "more body, more better" - these beers have plenty of body. The trick isn't getting them to have enough body. It's getting them dry enough so that when you finish the first beer, you really want a second. That's really the key with every beer. And rarely is there ever a reason to mash at 155.

+1 to what Keith says above. This is a significant factor to the underattenuation that I commonly detect in judging. Too many brewers focus on body instead of fermentability and they end up with nice and chewy beers, but they don't attenuate and each sip ends up coating and cloying the palette. I rarely find that I want to finish the glass... much less, order another round. Drinkability is an important feature in great beers. Avoiding an overly high mashing temperature is the first step to drinkability in my opinion.

I started out 15 years ago targeting mash temperatures of 155F and higher. I've learned that keeping the max temperature around 152F does produce more drinkable beers for me.  Another thing to consider is the duration of the mash. Both time and temperature are components in fermentability. Only in the smallest of beers do I bump up temperatures or shorten the mashing duration. 
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Offline denny

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2015, 10:03:03 am »
I agree with both Keith and Martin.  Years ago I decided that most of the homebrew I tried was too thick and dextrous.  That was my main motivation to go to longer and lower temp mashes.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2015, 10:18:45 am »
Thanks Martin  and Denny. Still learning and thought that was where I should be to keep abv in line with specs. This was really the first batch I've brewed with mash temp above 152. I will want to re-brew this one and will adjust temp. I remember thinking it was going to be a 90 minute mash but when I checked my notes it was 60. Next try will be 90 min at around 150/152
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2015, 10:33:50 am »
I agree with both Keith and Martin.  Years ago I decided that most of the homebrew I tried was too thick and dextrous.  That was my main motivation to go to longer and lower temp mashes.

+4.  My mash temps (except for mild/low OG) have gone lower and longer over time.
Jon H.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2015, 10:49:40 am »
you should still be able to verify that this is a fermentability profile issue or a yeast handling issue by using a forced/fast ferment test. take a pint of the beer and hit it with lots of yeast and see if you can get the gravity down at all. if it won't move at all you have an issue with the fermentability of the wort. if it does drop to where you want it you might be able to salvage the batch with a very large pitch of very active yeast.
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Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 10:53:35 am »
For a forced ferment test, I need to use the specific yeast I am fermenting with, correct? Should I try to siphon some from the bottom of the fermenter, or get another vial/pack?
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2015, 10:55:40 am »
For a forced ferment test, I need to use the specific yeast I am fermenting with, correct? Should I try to siphon some from the bottom of the fermenter, or get another vial/pack?

ideally you use the same yeast yes. I would guess you would be better off using fresh but I'm not sure. you would get some idea even just using bread yeast. but for best accuracy you'd use the same yeast as primary.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
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Offline denny

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2015, 11:54:58 am »
For a forced ferment test, I need to use the specific yeast I am fermenting with, correct? Should I try to siphon some from the bottom of the fermenter, or get another vial/pack?

Doesn't really matter.  I use bread yeast.  The purpose it to test the fermentability of the wort, not the action of the yeast.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2015, 12:01:06 pm »
Good to know Denny, I would have thought it was testing how much the specific yeast could do, but your point about testing the fermentability makes more sense
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline brewcrew7

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2015, 01:56:20 pm »
While I agree it might be a fermentability issue, what was your main fermentation temp? I recently read about and experienced myself a "stall" short of FG with a dopplebock using similar grains and W34/70 yeast and perhaps a low temperature was to blame, even with an adequate pitching rate. I've heard some strain(s) could just quit after a certain point at low temps and not revive later no matter what you try. Unfortunately for me at the time, I thought the beer was done despite warming and rousing for a few weeks (70% attenuated) and now I've got bottle gushers.

Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2015, 01:58:52 pm »
I had it in dual temp controlled chest freezer at 50 for first 2 weeks then started raising slowly to 65. Might have started the climb too late, but the new controller had temp dialed in every time I checked on freezer. Probe taped and insulated on outside of bucket
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline 69franx

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2015, 02:00:02 pm »
I have seen some airlock activity since rousing and I know that could just be off gassing after rousing, but I have my fingers crossed for a couple more points at least
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bock attenuation problem
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2015, 05:04:09 pm »
I have seen some airlock activity since rousing and I know that could just be off gassing after rousing, but I have my fingers crossed for a couple more points at least
If it bubbled immediately,  probably just disturbed it out of solution. If it came on gradually an hour or two late, it might be fermentation. Or if you also raised the temp that could be it too. Warmer holds less CO2...