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Author Topic: Right RPM for stir plate?  (Read 34153 times)

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2015, 10:46:49 am »
I'm going to pick on you here. Do you have a reference for this? What is the total count of awards won, and the % of non-stir vs stir? I've not seen competitions require the brewers to list what method of yeast propagation they used, but im new. Did they used to collect that info? Do any of these include awards won prior to the invention of electricity? Because that kind of unfairly stacks the deck in favor of the stirplatephobic hyperbole.

If we are counting NHC awards, then non-stir plate awards dwarf stir plate awards because the universal use of a stir plate is a relatively new thing.  If we are counting local competitions, then the numbers may be more even because of the explosion of local competitions.   

With that said, home brewers made award winning beers for three decades before a stir plate became a "must have."  The data is just not there to prove that stir plates have improved the overall quality of beer.  What has improved the overall quality of home-brewed beer is access to higher quality/fresher ingredients (we used to get product for which there was no professional market), ready-made gear,  and the dissemination of knowledge. 

Offline archstanton

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2015, 11:13:10 am »
I brew very few American-style ales.  I like ale to have nice ester profile.   Most of the ale strains that I use are not neutral at normal ale fermentation temperatures.

And maybe this is the source of the differences...I brew 80% American ales and want the ingredients other than yeast to come through.  But even the Belgian and German styles I brew as the other 20% have benefitted from cooler fermentations.

 
Yeah, that's what I was getting at, too. It's why I like Chico and 1450 for American styles - I like the malt and hops to shine and the yeast to mostly stay out of the way. I don't make as many British styles nowadays for this reason. And like you say, even Belgian beers (to me) are better started cool - I've had banana/phenol bombs from starting Belgian strains too warm. Just personal preference.

Brewing my 100th IPA beer right now. I am all about the hops. I have no problem whatsoever fermenting them at 68 and getting completely clean , super hop flavored beer. In fact I have found zero benefit to fermenting at 64 vs 68. In the summer it's 68, in the winter it's 64-66. If I thought there was a perceivable increase in quality, I would ferment them year round at the cooler temperature.

Whenever I look at a gold medal recipe, the fermentation temperature is rarely ever as low as 64, with 66-68 being the norm. Commercial recipes suggest those temps as well- even though most commercial brewers were/are homebrewers, if there were some great discrepancy I think they would make sure and correct it when giving recipes out for homebrewing.

In matters of opinion there is no argument, because you can't account for taste.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2015, 11:14:34 am »
Once again, though, your objection is more theoretical than actual, at least in my experience.  In practice, having used carboys, buckets, and cornies, the difference in thermal conductivity makes little to no difference in actual use.  Your experience may differ from that, but mine is that they work equally well in terms of thermal conductivity.

My non-attempered fermentations run a degree or two higher in HDPE plastic buckets than they do in glass carboys, so it's real.  If you are using attemperation, then it does not matter what you use as a fermentation vessel.

With that said, my main aversion to HDPE plastic as a fermentation vessel material is biological followed closely by its odor retaining properties.  Regardless of how well one cleans and maintains one's gear, HDPE is a wild microflora magnet.   They only way that I have found to de-funk an HDPE bucket is filling it with caustic, and I prefer to avoid working with that stuff.  While I am not a fan of glass from a safety point of view, it beats HDPE plastic hands down from a microbiological point of view.  One of the upgrades to my brewery that I am planning this year is a move to stainless fermentation vessels.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2015, 11:22:45 am »
I'm going to pick on you here. Do you have a reference for this? What is the total count of awards won, and the % of non-stir vs stir? I've not seen competitions require the brewers to list what method of yeast propagation they used, but im new. Did they used to collect that info? Do any of these include awards won prior to the invention of electricity? Because that kind of unfairly stacks the deck in favor of the stirplatephobic hyperbole.

If we are counting NHC awards, then non-stir plate awards dwarf stir plate awards because the universal use of a stir plate is a relatively new thing.  If we are counting local competitions, then the numbers may be more even because of the explosion of local competitions.   

With that said, home brewers made award winning beers for three decades before a stir plate became a "must have."  The data is just not there to prove that stir plates have improved the overall quality of beer.  What has improved the overall quality of home-brewed beer is access to higher quality/fresher ingredients (we used to get product for which there was no professional market), ready-made gear,  and the dissemination of knowledge.

like anything new in brewing, its appropriate to create like sample sizes for comparison. while stir plates are relatively new as you say, given the equal time period (say last 5-years for instance) of stir plate use compared to non stir plate use, great beers were produced (whether award winning and medal counting or not).
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
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Amber Ale
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Offline narcout

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2015, 11:44:59 am »
I am going to try this.

It's hard!  I pitched my starter at 10:00 Wednesday night.  At 6:30 Thursday morning, it was already at high krausen.  By the time I got home from the gym after work on Thursday night, it was 8 o'clock and it had already fermented out.

My dunkel seems to be fermenting pretty strongly though

Next time, I'll have to ask my wife (who gets home from work a few hours earlier than I do) to stick it in the fridge for me.

One of the upgrades to my brewery that I am planning this year is a move to stainless fermentation vessels.

That is a seriously worthwhile upgrade.
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2015, 11:45:27 am »
The data is just not there to prove that stir plates have improved the overall quality of beer.  What has improved the overall quality of home-brewed beer is access to higher quality/fresher ingredients (we used to get product for which there was no professional market), ready-made gear,  and the dissemination of knowledge.

I'd say my stir plate may have improved the quality of my beer.  But the main advantage has been quicker and easier yeast starters.
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Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2015, 11:47:36 am »
My non-attempered fermentations run a degree or two higher in HDPE plastic buckets than they do in glass carboys, so it's real.  If you are using attemperation, then it does not matter what you use as a fermentation vessel.

With that said, my main aversion to HDPE plastic as a fermentation vessel material is biological followed closely by its odor retaining properties.  Regardless of how well one cleans and maintains one's gear, HDPE is a wild microflora magnet.   They only way that I have found to de-funk an HDPE bucket is filling it with caustic, and I prefer to avoid working with that stuff.  While I am not a fan of glass from a safety point of view, it beats HDPE plastic hands down from a microbiological point of view.  One of the upgrades to my brewery that I am planning this year is a move to stainless fermentation vessels.

I guess I'll just have to resolve myself to the fact that my beer sucks, then, and I'm not sophisticated enough to know the difference.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2015, 11:47:45 am »
like anything new in brewing, its appropriate to create like sample sizes for comparison. while stir plates are relatively new as you say, given the equal time period (say last 5-years for instance) of stir plate use compared to non stir plate use, great beers were produced (whether award winning and medal counting or not).

However, no data exists that clearly demonstrates that stir plates have improve the quality of home-brewed beer, which means that a stir plate is an unnecessary expense for most home brewers, especially brewers who are on a tight budget like I was when I first started to brew over twenty years ago.

On a different note, I just purchased a Corning 1395-5L (5000ml) media bottle to keep the Corning 1395-100 (100ml) media bottles that I use for first-level starters company.


Corning 1395-100 media bottles filled with autoclaved wort






Corning 1395-5L (the mother of all media bottles, that is, except for its bigger brother the 1395-10L)


S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2015, 11:51:58 am »
I guess I'll just have to resolve myself to the fact that my beer sucks, then, and I'm not sophisticated enough to know the difference.

I am certain that your beer does not suck, but it has more to do with your level of expertise than any single step or piece of gear that you use.  A great musician can make beautiful music on a low-end instrument.  A poor musician will struggle to produce music that people can stand on a high-end instrument.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2015, 12:02:17 pm »

Brewing my 100th IPA beer right now. I am all about the hops. I have no problem whatsoever fermenting them at 68 and getting completely clean , super hop flavored beer. In fact I have found zero benefit to fermenting at 64 vs 68. In the summer it's 68, in the winter it's 64-66. If I thought there was a perceivable increase in quality, I would ferment them year round at the cooler temperature.

Whenever I look at a gold medal recipe, the fermentation temperature is rarely ever as low as 64, with 66-68 being the norm. Commercial recipes suggest those temps as well- even though most commercial brewers were/are homebrewers, if there were some great discrepancy I think they would make sure and correct it when giving recipes out for homebrewing.

In matters of opinion there is no argument, because you can't account for taste.

Yep, like I said, personal preference. As for pro brewers, a fair number ferment under pressure which inhibits ester formation , so it's 'apples to oranges' in terms of their temps. I'm willing to bet if you polled this forum, the vast majority of brewers (including the pro ones) ferment ales under 68F. I'm not saying it can't be done well.
Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2015, 12:11:15 pm »
like anything new in brewing, its appropriate to create like sample sizes for comparison. while stir plates are relatively new as you say, given the equal time period (say last 5-years for instance) of stir plate use compared to non stir plate use, great beers were produced (whether award winning and medal counting or not).

However, no data exists that clearly demonstrates that stir plates have improve the quality of home-brewed beer, which means that a stir plate is an unnecessary expense for most home brewers, especially brewers who are on a tight budget like I was when I first started to brew over twenty years ago.


my data exists..and im sure a few others on here have data that exists. my beers have definitely improved with stir plate. that's not to say that if i had your yeast management equipment and testing equipment and knowledge, that I couldn't produce good results also.  just not as practical for most.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2015, 12:22:52 pm »
I'm going to pick on you here. Do you have a reference for this? What is the total count of awards won, and the % of non-stir vs stir? I've not seen competitions require the brewers to list what method of yeast propagation they used, but im new. Did they used to collect that info? Do any of these include awards won prior to the invention of electricity? Because that kind of unfairly stacks the deck in favor of the stirplatephobic hyperbole.

If we are counting NHC awards, then non-stir plate awards dwarf stir plate awards because the universal use of a stir plate is a relatively new thing.  If we are counting local competitions, then the numbers may be more even because of the explosion of local competitions.   

With that said, home brewers made award winning beers for three decades before a stir plate became a "must have."  The data is just not there to prove that stir plates have improved the overall quality of beer.  What has improved the overall quality of home-brewed beer is access to higher quality/fresher ingredients (we used to get product for which there was no professional market), ready-made gear,  and the dissemination of knowledge.
Maybe, but much of your award argument is based on your opinion rather than known gathered data, and the notion that award winning equates to best. I can't prove this, but I'm betting some of the more recent award winners are far superior to those from decades past. In the home brew world at least, maybe not so much gap in the pro world.

I'm tracking with you on your key point, I just think you are needlessly stretching a notion to make that point. A stirplate, in and of itself,  is no more devil than angel. I think your point is that they dont aerate like some might be lead to beleive, and you can crash before they completely ferment out. That's the gold nugget I found in this thread

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2015, 12:26:33 pm »
One of the reasons why I hate plastic buckets is that HDPE has the lowest thermal conductivity rating of the "big three" materials that are used in the construction of fermentation vessels.  Stainless has a terminal conductivity rating of 16 watts per meter kelvin (W/(m·K)). Glass has a thermal conductivity rating of 1.05 W/(m·K).  HDPE plastic has a thermal conductivity of 0.42 W/m-K.   In essence, HDPE traps heat better than any of the materials commonly used in constructing fermentation vessels.

Once again, though, your objection is more theoretical than actual, at least in my experience.  In practice, having used carboys, buckets, and cornies, the difference in thermal conductivity makes little to no difference in actual use.  Your experience may differ from that, but mine is that they work equally well in terms of thermal conductivity.
Denny, as an author of a how to book, what problems could you face by telling new brewere to place glass carboys on concrete?

Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2015, 12:49:30 pm »
I guess I'll just have to resolve myself to the fact that my beer sucks, then, and I'm not sophisticated enough to know the difference.

I am certain that your beer does not suck, but it has more to do with your level of expertise than any single step or piece of gear that you use.  A great musician can make beautiful music on a low-end instrument.  A poor musician will struggle to produce music that people can stand on a high-end instrument.

But you just a much as said that buckets are unsuitable for fermentation.  That's what I use.  How can expertise overcome that?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2015, 12:53:42 pm »
One of the reasons why I hate plastic buckets is that HDPE has the lowest thermal conductivity rating of the "big three" materials that are used in the construction of fermentation vessels.  Stainless has a terminal conductivity rating of 16 watts per meter kelvin (W/(m·K)). Glass has a thermal conductivity rating of 1.05 W/(m·K).  HDPE plastic has a thermal conductivity of 0.42 W/m-K.   In essence, HDPE traps heat better than any of the materials commonly used in constructing fermentation vessels.

Once again, though, your objection is more theoretical than actual, at least in my experience.  In practice, having used carboys, buckets, and cornies, the difference in thermal conductivity makes little to no difference in actual use.  Your experience may differ from that, but mine is that they work equally well in terms of thermal conductivity.
Denny, as an author of a how to book, what problems could you face by telling new brewere to place glass carboys on concrete?

I imagine there could be liability issues.  In EHB, we had to place disclaimers on things like gathering your own mushrooms or using caffeine powder.  Not to mention, having broken carboys by placing them on carpeted concrete floors, I couldn't in good conscience advise anyone to do it.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell