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Author Topic: Right RPM for stir plate?  (Read 34140 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2015, 12:58:35 pm »
  Not to mention, having broken carboys by placing them on carpeted concrete floors, I couldn't in good conscience advise anyone to do it.

Yeah, wish I had a 'do over' on the 2 I broke back then. Glad it wasn't worse than it was.
Jon H.

Offline narcout

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2015, 05:35:59 pm »
On a different note, I just purchased a Corning 1395-5L (5000ml) media bottle to keep the Corning 1395-100 (100ml) media bottles that I use for first-level starters company.

Damn, those things are expensive! What's the advantage over a 5L flask, other than the screw top?
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2015, 08:25:48 pm »
Damn, those things are expensive! What's the advantage over a 5L flask, other than the screw top?

The autoclavable GL45 screw cap is a major advantage when shaking, and a Corning 4995-6L screw-cap Erlenmeyer flask is even more expensive (Corning does not make a 5L screw-cap Erlenmeyer).  There is also an autoclavable pouring ring under the screw cap that makes accurate pouring much easier.  Plus, it is much easier to find NOS (new old stock) surplus large media bottles than it is NOS large screw cap Erlenmeyer flasks, and I never purchase any screw cap lab glassware used because one does not know what was previously stored in used glassware.  Purchasing used means replacing the cap(s), which usually have to be purchased in quantity.  For example, I purchased a sizable lot of NOS Corning 125mm x 20mm screw cap culture tubes.  The tubes came with unused caps, but they were the wrong size cap (someone must have mixed up the lot).  I wound up having to order 192 caps at a cost of around $70.00 + shipping from a scientific supply house, which made a great deal an okay deal.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:27:39 pm by S. cerevisiae »

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2015, 08:35:54 pm »
But you just a much as said that buckets are unsuitable for fermentation.  That's what I use.  How can expertise overcome that?

You are more than likely meticulous with your cleaning, sanitation, and handling.  You are also fermenting low, which will prevent most native flora from starting.   If your ales improved when you went below 66F, here's your sign.

Post-posting addition:

By the way, I did not say that buckets were unsuitable for use as fermentation vessels. I stated my reasons why I consider HDPE buckets unsuitable for use in my brew house.  A brewer can use anything that he/she wants as a primary fermentation vessel as long as he/she is aware the downsides.  Glass definitely has a major downside in that it is fragile and breaks into sharp pieces.  However, glass is also non-porous; therefore, it blocks gas exchange and does not harbor microflora. It's also easier to sanitize and sterilize.  It is up to a brewer to decide if a non-porous, much easier to sanitize surface is worth the extra risk. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 09:03:18 pm by S. cerevisiae »

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2015, 09:25:11 pm »
I'm willing to bet if you polled this forum, the vast majority of brewers (including the pro ones) ferment ales under 68F.

I am willing to bet that if you polled this forum, you would find that the vast majority of all-grain brewers batch sparge.  What does that tell you?  It tells me that they were steered toward the process on forums such as this one just as new brewers are steered toward temperature-controlled fermentation and rinsing yeast with boiled water on forums such as this one.  A hobby that was built on rugged individualism is starting to experience "groupthink," which does no one good in the long run.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #140 on: January 19, 2015, 06:40:19 am »
I'm willing to bet if you polled this forum, the vast majority of brewers (including the pro ones) ferment ales under 68F.

I am willing to bet that if you polled this forum, you would find that the vast majority of all-grain brewers batch sparge.  What does that tell you?  It tells me that they were steered toward the process on forums such as this one just as new brewers are steered toward temperature-controlled fermentation and rinsing yeast with boiled water on forums such as this one.  A hobby that was built on rugged individualism is starting to experience "groupthink," which does no one good in the long run.

Except in this case, the 'groupthink' very likely produces damn good beer, which is the goal,no ? Or is the goal for everyone to take your advice ?  My liking my beer fermented at cool temps better than higher temps doesn't make me a blind follower - it means I've made a lot of beer and prefer it that way. Just like I prefer batch sparging for its simplicity - I couldn't give a damn if it works for somebody else. I brew beer for me first and foremost, though I'd be happy to share.  ;)
Jon H.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #141 on: January 19, 2015, 09:11:40 am »
I would hope that the goal of every brewer would be to keep an open mind, not take the "What I am doing works for me, so why try something different?" approach to brewing.  The only approach that I can think of that is more dangerous to the future of home brewing is the lemming approach of following the crowd without question.  If every home brewer took either of these approaches to home brewing, we would still be making beer from cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon malt extract and baker's yeast.

When it comes to yeast management, my goal is and has always been to make the process simpler and more foolproof.  I have done so because I have propagated almost every culture that I have used in brewing from one of these since batch #4:



If I took the approach to yeast propagation that most home brewers take today, it would take me a week or more to propagate a culture from slant.  Using the method outlined in this thread, I can go from a 4mm nichrome loop scrape from a slant to a healthy pitchable culture in as little as two days.

Contrary to what many forum readers may assume, I am not using any hi-tech equipment to maintain and propagate my yeast bank.  The basic process and equipment that I use have been around since the end of the nineteenth century.  While I use fancy lab glassware today, I started out using 4oz baby food jars for slants, plates, and sterile liquid media because the liners on the caps of baby food jars can withstand repeated autoclaving.  I did so because I was on a tight brewing budget at that point in time.  I continued to use 4oz baby food jars for my absolutely sterile first-level starters for ten years after I started to use screw cap culture tubes for slants and glass and pre-sterilized plastic petri dishes for plates.  I only switched to using 100ml media bottles instead of 4oz baby food jars because my sources for used baby food jars dried up, and I have more disposable income than I did when I first started to brew.

In essence, while the Internet has made high quality labware and culturing supplies available to people with non-laboratory addresses, I can teach a brewer how to maintain a healthy yeast bank on solid media using a home pressure canner/cooker, glassware found in a supermarket, and agar flakes found in most health food stores.  There's no freedom like being free from the major yeast suppliers.   There's also no freedom like having every brewing culture that has been deposited in culture collections around the world at one's disposal as well as the ability capture and isolate wild microflora.

In closing, nothing is learned by playing it safe and waiting for someone else to try something new or revisit something old with a new perspective.  If one is not producing a less than stellar batch from time to time that cannot be attributed to an accident, one is not growing as a brewer. I have tried many different approaches to yeast management since I started to maintain yeast bank.  Some approaches have worked, but most have produced less than desirable results.  I routinely pitch yeast cultures for which I have almost no brewing data into batches of wort that I spent four or more hours producing.  I have no idea as to how the batch will turn out or if I have selected the right recipe for the culture.  Heck, I do not even know if I am pitching a spoilage strain that I spent a c-note or more acquiring because the information available for most culture collection strains is minimal at best.  However, I learn something new with every pitch.  The information that I have shared about practical yeast management on this forum came about from theory plus practice, which is the engineering method of learning.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 10:51:05 am by S. cerevisiae »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #142 on: January 19, 2015, 09:26:19 am »
I would hope that the goal of every brewer would be to keep an open mind, not take the "What I am doing works for me, so why try something different?" approach to brewing.  The only approach that I can think of that is more dangerous to the future of home brewing is the lemming approach of following the crowd without question.  If every home brewer took either of these approaches to home brewing, we would still be making beer from cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon malt extract and baker's yeast.

great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #143 on: January 19, 2015, 09:33:41 am »
I would hope that the goal of every brewer would be to keep an open mind, not take the "What I am doing works for me, so why try something different?" approach to brewing.  The only approach that I can think of that is more dangerous to the future of home brewing is the lemming approach of following the crowd without question.  If every home brewer took either of these approaches to home brewing, we would still be making beer from cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon malt extract and baker's yeast.

great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"

^^^^^^.  Whirlpool hopping, experimenting with non traditional ingredients............
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #144 on: January 19, 2015, 10:47:00 am »
I would hope that the goal of every brewer would be to keep an open mind, not take the "What I am doing works for me, so why try something different?" approach to brewing.  The only approach that I can think of that is more dangerous to the future of home brewing is the lemming approach of following the crowd without question.  If every home brewer took either of these approaches to home brewing, we would still be making beer from cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon malt extract and baker's yeast.

great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"

Exactly right!  I didn't start doing any of those things becasue someone else simply said to do them, and I hope people don't look at my advice like that.  Collect info, analyze it through the filter of your experience, try it and decide for yourself if it works for you.
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #145 on: January 19, 2015, 10:47:17 am »
great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"

Ken, let me ask you a couple of questions.  How many sparging techniques have you studied and practiced to the point where you actually developed a level of expertise that elevated you above that of rank beginner?  How many yeast propagation techniques have you practiced to the point where you feel that you can achieve maximum performance out of the technique?  If the answer to either question is one, maybe two, then how do you know that the techniques you are using are best of breed? 

Throughout this discussion, you have attempted to argue the point that many brewers get acceptable results from stir plates; therefore, why should they try something different?  However, I have brought to light in more than one post that the smell and taste of a healthy culture does not differ from that of unhopped beer, and the goal of a starter is to increase healthy biomass that is ready to go to work upon pitching.   Off-aromas and off-flavors are signs that a culture is stressed, and a stressed culture is an unhealthy culture.   No one argues that off-aromas and off-flavors are often signs of yeast stress in a fermentation.  Yet, brewers who use stir plates go through great extents to decant their "foul" starter wort without questioning why their starter wort is foul.  A healthy starter is pitchable without decanting.

Remember, all of the techniques that you mentioned were the result of someone taking a chance as well as the heat for going against commonly accepted practice.  I know that I what I am asking people to try goes against what they do or have read on forums.  I guarantee that everything that I have posted in this thread is backed up by years of applying theory in an attempt to truly understand how the organisms that actually make beer work in a practical setting. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 10:55:34 am by S. cerevisiae »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #146 on: January 19, 2015, 11:09:29 am »
great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"

Ken, let me ask you a couple of questions.  How many sparging techniques have you studied and practiced to the point where you actually developed a level of expertise that elevated you above that of rank beginner?  How many yeast propagation techniques have you practiced to the point where you feel that you can achieve maximum performance out of the technique?  If the answer to either question is one, maybe two, then how do you know that the techniques you are using are best of breed? 

Throughout this discussion, you have attempted to argue the point that many brewers get acceptable results from stir plates; therefore, why should they try something different?  However, I have brought to light in more than one post that the smell and taste of a healthy culture does not differ from that of unhopped beer, and the goal of a starter is to increase healthy biomass that is ready to go to work upon pitching.   Off-aromas and off-flavors are signs that a culture is stressed, and a stressed culture is an unhealthy culture.   No one argues that off-aromas and off-flavors are often a sign of yeast stress in a fermentation.  Yet, brewers who use stir plates go through great extents to decant their "foul" starter wort without questioning why their starter wort is foul.  A healthy starter is pitchable without decanting.

Remember, all of the techniques that you mentioned were the result of someone taking a chance as well as the heat for going against commonly accepted practice.  I know that I what I am asking people to try goes against what they do or have read on forums.  I guarantee that everything that I have posted in this thread is backed up by years of applying theory in an attempt to truly understand how the organisms that actually make beer work in a practical setting.

for simplicity sake, let me say this: i'm not even remotely saying or suggesting my practices are the best, the only way, or qualify me or my beer as "the best".

i can tell you with certainty that when I try something different, and I can perceive the positive difference in the finished product...that's as real as it gets. Ive failed more times than succeeded in the beginning. I can say Ive continued to explore the possibilities and have adapted accordingly. I don't do things just because someone says its the way to do it-instead, I evaluate the proposition, consider the facts, and then decide if experimentation is in order.....more often than not I'll give it a shot out of curiosity.

So have my brewing practices, processes, and method's changed over the last 3-years-absolutely! Has my beer improved significantly, and to the point I'm proud to say I have a really good finished product- again, absolutely. Will there be more opportunity to improve- absolutely.

Contrary to what you may think, I'm not saying your suggestions about starters and yeast management are wrong. I'm just feeling your position in this thread has taken a turn towards saying , "if you don't do it the way outlined and you use a stir plate, your beer cant be as good as the beer made without a stir plate following the yeast management practices you've outlined here". its just not that simple IMO.

EDIT: FWIW, my starters don't stink and really don't taste foul at all. Just tasted london ale starter this weekend for my porter-tastes like beer, smells like beer. on stir plate low speed for about 18hrs, cold crashed, and mostly decanted before pitching.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 11:23:31 am by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #147 on: January 19, 2015, 11:38:51 am »
On a final note (said all i can say), my only hope is new (and seasoned alike i guess) brewers take away the following from this thread:  We are not curing cancer here...we are brewing beer. At the end of the day, just enjoy what you are doing, ask questions and challenge everything. By doing so you'll free yourself to the possible, and somewhere along the journey you'll find a path you can call your own.  If whatever you do in the process of making beer works for you and you're happy with your finished product...that's all that really matters.

For the love of beer-peace out!  ;D
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #148 on: January 19, 2015, 11:41:44 am »
I would hope that the goal of every brewer would be to keep an open mind, not take the "What I am doing works for me, so why try something different?" approach to brewing.  The only approach that I can think of that is more dangerous to the future of home brewing is the lemming approach of following the crowd without question.  If every home brewer took either of these approaches to home brewing, we would still be making beer from cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon malt extract and baker's yeast.

great points.  this is how brewers navigated to using stir plates, batch sparge, brulosophy lager schedule, etc....-"open mind to trying something different"

The Bruelosophy schedule is pretty much what I have been doing for the last 3-4 years. Most of what I got was from Kai's page. Comments. Go on gravity, as sometimes I start the D-rest after 4 days for a 12 P beer, or it might take 6 or more for a 20+ P beer that is fermented at 48F. Check the flavor during the D-rest, you might not need 5 days. Crash to -1C (30.2F if you are SI challanged). Give it time to clear.
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Offline denny

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Re: Right RPM for stir plate?
« Reply #149 on: January 19, 2015, 11:41:59 am »
On a final note (said all i can say), my only hope is new (and seasoned alike i guess) brewers take away the following from this thread:  We are not curing cancer here...we are brewing beer. At the end of the day, just enjoy what you are doing, ask questions and challenge everything. By doing so you'll free yourself to the possible, and somewhere along the journey you'll find a path you can call your own.  If whatever you do in the process of making beer works for you and you're happy with your finished product...that's all that really matters.

For the love of beer-peace out!  ;D

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