Author Topic: Water Chemistry  (Read 1158 times)

Offline JohnnyC

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Water Chemistry
« on: January 15, 2015, 09:37:01 PM »
I'm brewing an IPA on Saturday. OG 1.063, 70 IBU (calculated), 7 SRM. Just finished "Water" by Palmer. Thoughts on my water profile?:
Mash pH *: 5.55
Mash thickness: 1.50 qt/lb
Ca+2           143.9
Mg+2           9.4
Na+           14.9
Cl-           84
SO4-2        200   
Alkalinity   93.7
RA           -13.9

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 09:49:33 PM »
I'm brewing an IPA on Saturday. OG 1.063, 70 IBU (calculated), 7 SRM. Just finished "Water" by Palmer. Thoughts on my water profile?:
Mash pH *: 5.55
Mash thickness: 1.50 qt/lb
Ca+2           143.9
Mg+2           9.4
Na+           14.9
Cl-           84
SO4-2        200   
Alkalinity   93.7
RA           -13.9
couple thoughts: chlorides a tad high for my liking. it was recommended to me to use about 250PPM sulfate and I really liked the difference it made. Also it was suggested a mash PH of 5.4, although not sure how big diff the 5.5 you have is.

here's what is use for example:
calcium - 98
magnesium - 13
sodium - 9
sulfate 240
chloride - 45
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 10:36:42 PM »
Yeah, I agree with backing off on chloride, too.  Martin posted that, when using high sulfate levels (which you want to enhance hop character in IPA), it's best to keep chloride at or under 50ppm, to avoid 'minerally' character. I think you'll be a lot happier at, say, 250ppm sulfate and 50ppm chloride. FWIW, I use 225-250ppm sulfate for APA, 250-300ppm sulfate for AIPA.
Jon H.

Offline JohnnyC

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 10:56:47 PM »
I made some adjustments on your feedback:

Ca+2       141.6
Mg+2       7.9
Na+         2.3
Cl-           56.8
SO4-2       215.8 
Alkalinity   78.5
RA           -27.1

Better?

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 10:57:47 PM »
I made some adjustments on your feedback:

Ca+2       141.6
Mg+2       7.9
Na+         2.3
Cl-           56.8
SO4-2       215.8 
Alkalinity   78.5
RA           -27.1

Better?

just curious-whats driving your calcium number?
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Dort
Mead                 
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Offline JohnnyC

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 11:01:31 PM »
My water supply. I'm not using all RO, using my city water (I'm stubborn). Its hard water, very alkaline. I am cutting my strike water with RO, so mixing the 2.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 11:04:55 PM »
My water supply. I'm not using all RO, using my city water (I'm stubborn). Its hard water, very alkaline. I am cutting my strike water with RO, so mixing the 2.
i see. what portion PPM is water vs.. additions? I cant say if there's too much calcium-perhaps a more knowledgeable water/beer chemistry person will chime in. Ive just never had more than 100ppm, and usually am around 50-60ppm with lagers being the exception-i keep them 40-50PPM.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline JohnnyC

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 11:12:35 PM »
My water supply. I'm not using all RO, using my city water (I'm stubborn). Its hard water, very alkaline. I am cutting my strike water with RO, so mixing the 2.
i see. what portion PPM is water vs.. additions? I cant say if there's too much calcium-perhaps a more knowledgeable water/beer chemistry person will chime in. Ive just never had more than 100ppm, and usually am around 50-60ppm with lagers being the exception-i keep them 40-50PPM.

Source water
Ca+2          83
Mg+2          26
Na+           7
Cl-            14
SO4-2        26   
Alkalinity   261 as CaCO3

I may have to go to RO to take my beers to the next level.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 11:15:53 PM »
My water supply. I'm not using all RO, using my city water (I'm stubborn). Its hard water, very alkaline. I am cutting my strike water with RO, so mixing the 2.
i see. what portion PPM is water vs.. additions? I cant say if there's too much calcium-perhaps a more knowledgeable water/beer chemistry person will chime in. Ive just never had more than 100ppm, and usually am around 50-60ppm with lagers being the exception-i keep them 40-50PPM.

Source water
Ca+2          83
Mg+2          26
Na+           7
Cl-            14
SO4-2        26   
Alkalinity   261 as CaCO3

I may have to go to RO to take my beers to the next level.

like i said, im not sure if the calcium levels have any impact or not. hopefully someone chimes in for you.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 11:27:19 PM »
I don't know at exactly what level too much Ca causes issues. I know you don't need over 50ppm. I use the Pale Ale Profile in Bru'nwater for APA/AIPA and it does use some epsom (magnesium sulfate) to give you sulfate without excess Ca. I also get Ca from gypsum and CaCl. Making high sulfate level beers does typically drive up Ca levels more than other beers, even using epsom. I will say that I've made a lot of high sulfate ales (with obviously fairly high Ca levels)and never suffered an issue. I say use epsom within Bru'nwater limits, get the rest of your sulfate from gypsum, add 50 ppm CaCl and you'll make a good beer.
Jon H.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 04:49:43 AM »
Is the SO4-2 really SO4-S?

Ward labs reports the Sulfur ppm, to get SO4 multiply by 3 on that case, or 78 ppm.
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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 05:17:39 AM »
My only adjustment at this point would be that the RA is pretty low, more pilsner than IPA. You have enough Ca/Mg coming in from the source water that you could leave most, if not all, of the salt additions for the kettle, which should bump the RA into positive territory.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 01:36:55 PM »
The RA is probably not too out of line. A slightly negative RA is probably OK since an IPA grist is probably not that acidic unless it includes a bunch of crystal. Remember, this profile has a decent amount of alkalinity and that balances the high hardness from the Ca and Mg.

The SO4-2 is just indicating the valence charge for the ion. Notice that Ca and Mg are +2, Cl is -, etc.

I think the original profile was OK, except for the Cl was a bit higher than I would target. The 200 ppm SO4 should be a good starting point for exploring how you like sulfate in your PA's
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 01:41:05 PM »
The RA is probably not too out of line. A slightly negative RA is probably OK since an IPA grist is probably not that acidic unless it includes a bunch of crystal. Remember, this profile has a decent amount of alkalinity and that balances the high hardness from the Ca and Mg.

The SO4-2 is just indicating the valence charge for the ion. Notice that Ca and Mg are +2, Cl is -, etc.

I think the original profile was OK, except for the Cl was a bit higher than I would target. The 200 ppm SO4 should be a good starting point for exploring how you like sulfate in your PA's

glad you chimed in Martin. any feedback on calcium levels and if there's any  negative effects at higher levels?
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water Chemistry
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 02:05:13 PM »
The RA is probably not too out of line. A slightly negative RA is probably OK since an IPA grist is probably not that acidic unless it includes a bunch of crystal. Remember, this profile has a decent amount of alkalinity and that balances the high hardness from the Ca and Mg.

The SO4-2 is just indicating the valence charge for the ion. Notice that Ca and Mg are +2, Cl is -, etc.

I think the original profile was OK, except for the Cl was a bit higher than I would target. The 200 ppm SO4 should be a good starting point for exploring how you like sulfate in your PA's

Now I see the other charges listed. It was late.
Jeff Rankert
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