Author Topic: Martin B. is the man!  (Read 4835 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 06:55:01 PM »
Has anyone adjusted the spreadsheet when using Avengard Pils or Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils malt?  Just wondering and I haven't taken a pH reading lately (I followed Brunwater straight up on my pilsners)....
ive used the avangard pils recently and PH was lower than projected as mentioned. ive also used a floor malted maris, and had similar low PH vs projections. i think that given the same malt in RO or distilled vs higher buffering cpacity water, the lower PH impact could be greater or more noticeable.

EDIT: i used about 33% avangard pils, and 67% avangard munich. rest was cara, melanoiden and a little biscuit.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 06:58:18 PM by wort-h.o.g. »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2015, 07:07:30 PM »
I have been using RO with a TDS of 12-14 then adjust with 3.8 g of CaCl to both mash and sparge and 1.5 g of CaSO4 in the mash with none to the sparge, 3.8 g of lactic 88% to the mash and .5 g lactic to the sparge for a 10 gallon batch using 16 pounds of Pils, 1.5 pounds of Carapils and a half pound of Melanoiden.  The results have been pretty good, but now I am wondering about the pH....if the beer could improve with that measured closely.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 10:01:05 PM »
Any reason why you targeted a higher mash pH?

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 10:05:26 PM »
Any reason why you targeted a higher mash pH?

not sure if that question was meant for me. but PH 5.4 because of better hop utilization.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
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http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2015, 02:10:46 AM »
Any reason why you targeted a higher mash pH?

If the question was directed at me, the reading was taken at room temperature, not mash temperature.  Most of my mashes are in the 5.5 to 5.6 range at room temperature, which should place them in the 5.2 to 5.3 range at mash temperature.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 02:43:15 AM »

Any reason why you targeted a higher mash pH?

If the question was directed at me, the reading was taken at room temperature, not mash temperature.  Most of my mashes are in the 5.5 to 5.6 range at room temperature, which should place them in the 5.2 to 5.3 range at mash temperature.

Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline JT

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 02:52:33 AM »
I've heard this both ways too.  My last batch I took a reading of my sample while it was hot and then after it cooled.  I got the same reading.  Going to try this experiment again next batch, mainly because I want it to work!

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 02:58:29 AM »
Without temp correction ph will be different hot vs room temp. It will also shorten life of probe.


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

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Offline JT

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 03:02:01 AM »
Yeah mine has temp correction.   I've just heard varying opinions on whether it actually works. 

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2015, 03:06:44 AM »
Yeah mine has temp correction.   I've just heard varying opinions on whether it actually works.
The temp correction is for the electronics, not the reaction vs temp.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 03:13:35 AM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.


Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 08:45:02 AM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.


Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

so if that were the case, anyone taking mash PH that cools to room temp doesnt have an actual PH to compare to their target PH. unless Im missing something, that would be significant if your cooled mash temp was 5.2-5.5... that would mean the actual mash PH would be lower by about .4-.5 (150F mash vs room temp sample of 70F)???

so every PH reading I take that is cooled, I should correct lower by a factor of .4-.5?  if this is accurate, that's news to me!

here's similar discussion with Kai's comments on this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

"In short:
- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe
- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35
- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.
- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e  5.2 and 5.7 should work too.
- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

Kai"
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 09:20:39 AM by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 01:04:53 PM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.


Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

so if that were the case, anyone taking mash PH that cools to room temp doesnt have an actual PH to compare to their target PH. unless Im missing something, that would be significant if your cooled mash temp was 5.2-5.5... that would mean the actual mash PH would be lower by about .4-.5 (150F mash vs room temp sample of 70F)???

so every PH reading I take that is cooled, I should correct lower by a factor of .4-.5?  if this is accurate, that's news to me!

here's similar discussion with Kai's comments on this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

"In short:
- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe
- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35
- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.
- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e  5.2 and 5.7 should work too.
- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

Kai"
According to Kai somewhere, the brewing literature (was it Narziss?) states that you want a reading of 5.3 - 5.6 at room temperature. After reading that I stopped worrying about the shift to a lower value at higher temperatures.
Jeff Rankert
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AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2015, 02:27:49 PM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.


Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

so if that were the case, anyone taking mash PH that cools to room temp doesnt have an actual PH to compare to their target PH. unless Im missing something, that would be significant if your cooled mash temp was 5.2-5.5... that would mean the actual mash PH would be lower by about .4-.5 (150F mash vs room temp sample of 70F)???

so every PH reading I take that is cooled, I should correct lower by a factor of .4-.5?  if this is accurate, that's news to me!

here's similar discussion with Kai's comments on this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

"In short:
- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe
- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35
- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.
- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e  5.2 and 5.7 should work too.
- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

Kai"

read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2015, 04:44:42 PM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.


Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

so if that were the case, anyone taking mash PH that cools to room temp doesnt have an actual PH to compare to their target PH. unless Im missing something, that would be significant if your cooled mash temp was 5.2-5.5... that would mean the actual mash PH would be lower by about .4-.5 (150F mash vs room temp sample of 70F)???

so every PH reading I take that is cooled, I should correct lower by a factor of .4-.5?  if this is accurate, that's news to me!

here's similar discussion with Kai's comments on this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

"In short:
- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe
- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35
- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.
- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e  5.2 and 5.7 should work too.
- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

Kai"

read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.

that's what I took away also- thanks.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest