Author Topic: Martin B. is the man!  (Read 4512 times)

rabeb25

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2015, 06:03:11 PM »
FWIW I thought Brunwater was also slated for room temp readings. I.e. 5.3 in brun water assumes you are measuring at room temp.

Which is why I asked S. why he target a higher end of the spectrum mash ph.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2015, 12:11:22 AM »
FWIW I thought Brunwater was also slated for room temp readings. I.e. 5.3 in brun water assumes you are measuring at room temp.

Which is why I asked S. why he target a higher end of the spectrum mash ph.

You are correct. While anywhere in the spectrum is acceptable to minimize the risk of tannin extraction and allow the enzymatic processed to work well there are perceptable differences in flavor and, according S. hop utilization. between 5.3 and 5.5. it's pretty subtle stuff but it can make a real difference. higher pH tends to accentuate hop flavor to some extent.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2015, 12:18:00 AM »
Yep, I like 5.4 for hoppy beers.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2015, 05:36:05 AM »
read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.

However, what matters to enzymatic hydrolysis is the pH at mash temperature, not the pH at room temperature.  A pH of 5.6 at room temperature is as pH of around 5.3 at mash temperature. I thought that this information was common knowledge.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2015, 11:44:26 AM »
read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.

However, what matters to enzymatic hydrolysis is the pH at mash temperature, not the pH at room temperature.  A pH of 5.6 at room temperature is as pH of around 5.3 at mash temperature. I thought that this information was common knowledge.

The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai's article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

That's why alarms went off in my head when I read your post-thought I was doing something wrong. I just never read or heard of anyone taking PH of mash at room temp and adjusting it for mash temp PH.
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rabeb25

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2015, 02:17:56 PM »
read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.

However, what matters to enzymatic hydrolysis is the pH at mash temperature, not the pH at room temperature.  A pH of 5.6 at room temperature is as pH of around 5.3 at mash temperature. I thought that this information was common knowledge.

It is common knowledge, but I don't think the actual shift is .3, closer to .2...  I am also fully aware of targeting higher ph's fro the beers. I.e. For a pils I target 5.2-3 for a nice crisp finish (also helps the yeast work faster). I also target 5.4-5 for hoppy American beers, just never went as high as 5.6. I think Kai did a test on higher wort pH's, but didn't know if I missed something.

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2015, 02:22:00 PM »
read what kai wrote again. He says optima are stated at room temp. so by cooling your sample to room temp you are 'removing the ambiguity'. so 5.2-5.7 is optimal AT ROOM TEMP. you are doing the readings just fine.

However, what matters to enzymatic hydrolysis is the pH at mash temperature, not the pH at room temperature.  A pH of 5.6 at room temperature is as pH of around 5.3 at mash temperature. I thought that this information was common knowledge.

It is common knowledge, but I don't think the actual shift is .3, closer to .2...  I am also fully aware of targeting higher ph's fro the beers. I.e. For a pils I target 5.2-3 for a nice crisp finish (also helps the yeast work faster). I also target 5.4-5 for hoppy American beers, just never went as high as 5.6. I think Kai did a test on higher wort pH's, but didn't know if I missed something.

i have an old probe on one  of my meters i'm replacing when new one comes in. think just for the heck of it i will take a reading at mash temp and compare it to room temp this weekend....see what the shift really is.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2015, 04:08:31 PM »
The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai's article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

All of my references point to optimum mash pH being between 5.2 and 5.3 at mash temperature. 

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2015, 04:45:06 PM »
The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai's article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

All of my references point to optimum mash pH being between 5.2 and 5.3 at mash temperature.

feel like a storms coming on this one.....
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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rabeb25

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2015, 04:49:56 PM »
The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai's article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

All of my references point to optimum mash pH being between 5.2 and 5.3 at mash temperature.

Well this post was all about Brunwater... Brunwater is made to read with a room temp sample. That sample is correlated to mash temp. If Brunwater says 5.3 mash pH, its expects you to read 5.3 on your cooled sample because it does/did the guess work(pH temp shifts) for you.  I think you are thinking if Brunwater reads 5.3 at mash you need to read 5.6 at room, right?

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on pH values.

Also in looking at your sample picture, you have WAY to much grain in that sample. You should really have a nice clear (free of particles) sample.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 04:52:57 PM by rabeb25 »

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2015, 04:52:39 PM »
The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai's article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

All of my references point to optimum mash pH being between 5.2 and 5.3 at mash temperature.

Well this post was all about Brunwater... Brunwater is made to read with a room temp sample. That sample is correlated to mash temp. If Brunwater says 5.3 mash pH, its expects you to read 5.3 on your cooled sample and it does the guess work(pH temp shifts) for you.  I think you are thinking if Brunwater reads 5.3 at mash you need to read 5.6 at room, right?

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on pH values.

yep don't disagree at all the PH differs from mash temp to room temp. all i can say is that references made to "optimal PH for mash" for given style of beer is referencing mash PH at room temp (as far as I can tell in everything i've read).
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2015, 06:01:07 PM »
One thing I've noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru'n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature). 

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2015, 06:11:03 PM »
One thing I've noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru'n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2015, 07:19:46 PM »
One thing I've noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru'n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.
There's definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you're talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you're setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you're really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you're shooting for. For example, you like your wit's to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You're choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.
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Re: Martin B. is the man!
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2015, 07:29:52 PM »
One thing I've noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru'n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.
There's definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you're talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you're setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you're really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you're shooting for. For example, you like your wit's to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You're choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

completely agree with what you point out. i just dont typically do any other PH adjustments outside of the mash and sparge water. if i target mash at 5.4 then i boil at 5.4 vs having a mash PH of 5.3 and then adjusting in the kettle to 5.4. have i had to do post mash adjustments...yes, but just less monkeying around if I don't have to.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
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