Author Topic: 2-step starters  (Read 2259 times)

Offline mattybrass

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2-step starters
« on: January 26, 2015, 08:32:17 PM »
Hi,

Im going to be brewing 10g of a Munich Helles that I plan on submitting to a comp in May. I am going to use two different yeasts and will be doing a 2-step starter for each of them. How important is the time in between the stages. Would there be a difference in final cell count if i did the first starter lets say today and then the second step in 1.5-2 weeks or should they be done as close in succession as possible, ie. decant the first while cooling the second?

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 10:14:03 PM »
Hi,

Im going to be brewing 10g of a Munich Helles that I plan on submitting to a comp in May. I am going to use two different yeasts and will be doing a 2-step starter for each of them. How important is the time in between the stages. Would there be a difference in final cell count if i did the first starter lets say today and then the second step in 1.5-2 weeks or should they be done as close in succession as possible, ie. decant the first while cooling the second?

well nobody touching this one, so if it were me....i'd complete 1st step, crash decant and perform second step-final step within a week of pitching. cant say if your proposal is any worse or not.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2015, 10:45:47 PM »
Is there a reason to have a week or so in between steps?  I don't think it's beneficial but it may not be harmful.

I do two step starters as a general practice.  When the first step is done, I crash, decant, and add the wort for the second step.  I time this to be ready for brewing when the second step is done.  Usually, I will crash the second step the night before or morning of brew day.

Maybe a 5 days total in between starting and finishing both steps. 
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 11:26:10 PM »
My question is why are you doing a two step starter? Is it because you don't have room for the volume you need? for what it's worth you can probably get away with a one step 2L starter, 3 liters would be better. If you only have room for 1 liter can you do more than just the two? If I need a bigger starter than I have room for in any one container I split the pitch into two smaller containers.

Because the yeast will hit maximum cell density at around 200 billion cells in a 1 liter starter if you pitch two you'll be pretty close to your target rate of ~400 billion. Whereas if you pitch the results of a 1 liter starter ~200 billion (likely a bit less) into another 1 liter starter you will have ~200 billion older, tireder cells.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 12:20:22 AM »
Me? Because it works, it's consistent, and I don't need to go buy three liter flasks.

If it ain't broke I choose not to fix it.

But I assume your were asking the OP.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 02:33:02 PM »
Me? Because it works, it's consistent, and I don't need to go buy three liter flasks.

If it ain't broke I choose not to fix it.

But I assume your were asking the OP.

yeah, more towards the OP. I certainly have made multistep starters. But once I realized I could use half gallon mason jars, and I have a lot of those around, I just started spliting pitches and making multiple single step starters. quicker, easier (especially if you have pre-canned wort in the cupboard), and possible better.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 03:29:47 PM »
I have no large mason jars, but I have plenty of growlers.

I will use those on occasion, but I've frown used to my flasks.  I'll use a growler for a starter on a really big beer if I don't do a "small" batch first to grow up some yeast.
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Offline mattybrass

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 02:51:35 PM »
Me? Because it works, it's consistent, and I don't need to go buy three liter flasks.

If it ain't broke I choose not to fix it.

But I assume your were asking the OP.

yeah, more towards the OP. I certainly have made multistep starters. But once I realized I could use half gallon mason jars, and I have a lot of those around, I just started spliting pitches and making multiple single step starters. quicker, easier (especially if you have pre-canned wort in the cupboard), and possible better.

If I were using one yeast i would do one big starter in my 5L flask but because I'm going to use two different yeast strains I was going to do the 2-step. Its 1.048 and 5.25g per fermenter, mr malty says 2.76L if using one vial & I only have one 5L flask. I may just end up buying a second vial of each and do a 1 step starter for each strain, I'm still going back and forth on that.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 07:14:49 PM »
a half gallon mason jar will only cost about 1.50 for what it's worth. you could get quite a few mason jars for the cost of a 5L flask
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Offline beersk

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 08:35:41 PM »
My question is why are you doing a two step starter? Is it because you don't have room for the volume you need? for what it's worth you can probably get away with a one step 2L starter, 3 liters would be better. If you only have room for 1 liter can you do more than just the two? If I need a bigger starter than I have room for in any one container I split the pitch into two smaller containers.

Because the yeast will hit maximum cell density at around 200 billion cells in a 1 liter starter if you pitch two you'll be pretty close to your target rate of ~400 billion. Whereas if you pitch the results of a 1 liter starter ~200 billion (likely a bit less) into another 1 liter starter you will have ~200 billion older, tireder cells.
One step starter for a 10 gallon batch of Helles? I'd be doing a 2 step for a 5 gallon batch.

Ferment the first step for 3-4 days, crash over night, decant and add new cooled wort. Step up from a 2 to a 3. I'd still think that's not enough for 10 gallons, but it might be...
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Offline phunhog

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 04:57:10 AM »
a half gallon mason jar will only cost about 1.50 for what it's worth. you could get quite a few mason jars for the cost of a 5L flask
Does the mason jar work with a stir plate?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 12:40:38 PM »
Haven't tried the masons yet but on my stirplate a standard 1 gallon jug works so I'll bet the masons do.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 02:41:35 PM »
If it doesn't work on the stir plate you could do the old shake and bake method described on the stir plate RPM thread.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 02:57:49 PM »
My question is why are you doing a two step starter? Is it because you don't have room for the volume you need? for what it's worth you can probably get away with a one step 2L starter, 3 liters would be better. If you only have room for 1 liter can you do more than just the two? If I need a bigger starter than I have room for in any one container I split the pitch into two smaller containers.

Because the yeast will hit maximum cell density at around 200 billion cells in a 1 liter starter if you pitch two you'll be pretty close to your target rate of ~400 billion. Whereas if you pitch the results of a 1 liter starter ~200 billion (likely a bit less) into another 1 liter starter you will have ~200 billion older, tireder cells.
One step starter for a 10 gallon batch of Helles? I'd be doing a 2 step for a 5 gallon batch.

Ferment the first step for 3-4 days, crash over night, decant and add new cooled wort. Step up from a 2 to a 3. I'd still think that's not enough for 10 gallons, but it might be...

that's the thing, it's two 5 gallon batches. different yeasts. All i'm saying it you are better off figuring out a way to make a bigger one step starter. going from 2L to 2L will results in less growth and less vigor.
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Offline mattybrass

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Re: 2-step starters
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 03:32:40 PM »
Ive tried using 1 gallon jugs before and they tend to throw the bar since the bottom is domed and not flat like a flask. I think ill end up buying 2 vials for each starter since technically its two 5.25g batches