Author Topic: The End of the 60 minute mash???  (Read 3556 times)

Offline hmbrewing

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The End of the 60 minute mash???
« on: February 02, 2015, 05:59:02 PM »
Hi! Just recently had an in depth discussion with a local brewer who also has a degree in micro biology yada yada some other degree too. Anyway...very smart. He's doing research and experimentation for a local malt company and said that 60 minute mashes will become a distant memory (if not on their way already). Apparently, the malts that are now available to us are now so well modified that you can achieve full conversion in 15 minutes or less. This includes Briess malts, who I understand will be completely discontinuing 6 row malt as 2 Row has become so much more efficient/well modified. With his last few batches he only mashed for 15 minutes at most and achieved full conversion and great efficiency! The only word of caution he gave to me was to be sure I did an iodine test prior to draining to confirm full conversion, which I always do anyway. So yes - on my next batch, I will surely be testing this. And if I achieve full conversion and it doesn't nick my efficiency I will most likely never look back as I'm not one to get stuck in a routine just for the hell of it. I love trying out new theories and ideas! Anyone else out there hear about this?
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Offline Stevie

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 06:07:58 PM »
This has been discussed at length over the last few years. There are folks here that use a 45 minute mash and love it. I still use a 60 minute mash and never use an iodine test. I may give it a go sometime soon, but I use that 60 minutes to perform other brewing chores.

Offline hmbrewing

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 06:09:07 PM »
I knew I was going to miss a detail in the conversation: I asked him about attenuation and whether or not it would be affected. His response was none at all. We used to worry about this 5 or so years ago, but apparently this too has become a thing of the past. Malts have come a long way in just 5 years. He's getting his beers down in the 1.01 range with no issues. And he's also someone who batch sparges. So the wort is literally sitting in the mash for no longer than 15 minutes. Sorry...I'm sure I missed some other details...he threw a lot at me  :)
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Offline SiameseMoose

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 06:09:42 PM »
There was a presentation at NHC on this a few years back by one of the owners of Two Brothers, who did his dissertation on mash chemistry. He made the same point. Unfortunately, when I experimented with it (three attempts) I consistently got poor attenuation. My final gravities were in the 1.024 - 1.028 range for beers where I expected 10 points lower. Once I went back to 60 minutes all was well in my brewhouse again.
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Offline realbeerguy

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 06:10:13 PM »
Yes, have heard this in commercial brewing, but the time vorlaufing did not come into play.  Put the total time more like 35-45 min.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 06:34:02 PM »
I knew I was going to miss a detail in the conversation: I asked him about attenuation and whether or not it would be affected. His response was none at all.

Absolutely false.  Credibility = bye-bye.

Be extra careful listening to advice from any commercial brewers.  Their experience often does not correlate with homebrewing.
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Offline hmbrewing

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 06:42:37 PM »
He's not a commercial brewer - he's a homebrewer...sorry, looking back I realize I mislead when I said "local brewer". He's doing 5 - 10 gallon batches and his beers are fully attenuating. And he's batch sparging. He's actually well respected and has helped many of us fine tune our brew days while also simplifying. So far, he hasn't lead me astray.

Like I said - I'll be testing this out. I'll report my findings but it's going to be a while.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 06:48:48 PM »
Perhaps I need to re-run all my experiments conducted 8-9 years ago.  I guess I'll very cautiously give your friend the benefit of the doubt..... especially since I'm the same guy who's been saying for 8-9 years that you only need to mash for 40 minutes.

Apologies.  Cheers.
Dave

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Offline hmbrewing

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 06:53:37 PM »
Perhaps I need to re-run all my experiments conducted 8-9 years ago.  I guess I'll very cautiously give your friend the benefit of the doubt..... especially since I'm the same guy who's been saying for 8-9 years that you only need to mash for 40 minutes.

Apologies.  Cheers.

No worries...I was actually stunned when he was talking to me about it. Still am - hence the reason I posted. Just wondering if there was anyone out there who has heard about this or tried it recently. I know this is a topic that goes back a ways - but seems like things are changing so fast in the homebrew world that many techniques we thought were necessary may not be anymore?? We'll have to see what happens with my next batch. If I don't get great attenuation he'll have some explaining to do  :)
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 07:04:42 PM »
A couple of points, well more than a couple.

1. The degree of modification is set in the malt house, and how long they let the rootlets grow.

2. New varieties of NA 2 row are very 'hot" as they have high Diastatic Power. Some are around 150+ degrees Lintner. With that much in the way of enzymes you can get conversion fast.

3. Has he tried this with Maris Otter? It has much lower DP. How about an all Dark Munich mash?

4. Conversion means certain starches are gone. You can still get more fermentable sugars if you go longer.

5. Commercial brewers talk about 15-20 minutes rests. They may be mashing in for that long, and as others have said they take a lot longer to mash out (if they do) or lauter.

My viewpoint is select the right tool (mash schedule) for the job. Yeah I might try mashing short for NA 2 row or 6 row, not British or German malts.



 
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 07:17:12 PM »
My viewpoint is select the right tool (mash schedule) for the job. Yeah I might try mashing short for NA 2 row or 6 row, not British or German malts.

Excellent list, Jeff.  I agree 100%.
Dave

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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 07:17:43 PM »
i've never done a mash less that 60, and push up to 90 depending on what temp.

that's not saying full conversion cant or doesn't happen less than 60; i just haven't felt the need to shorten it or add testing for complete conversion into my process at this point. like others mentioned, those 6o minutes fly by when you're prepping other things for the brew day.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 07:28:00 PM »
I recently heard a talk by the guys at Flat Tail. They tried doing a short mash to leave some starch behind in a lambic. They started running off immediately and found even that didn't work. Full conversion occurred anyway.

Having said that, I mash 60-90 minutes depending on grist bill.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 07:28:26 PM »
I recently heard a talk by the guys at Flat Tail. They tried doing a short mash to leave some starch behind in a lambic. They started running off immediately and found even that didn't work. Full conversion occurred anyway.

Having said that, I mash 60-90 minutes depending on grist bill.

Offline denny

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Re: The End of the 60 minute mash???
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 07:49:32 PM »
After experimenting with different mash lengths, I now do 90 for almost everything.  I simply prefer the results.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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