Author Topic: Is German magnum a noble hop?  (Read 3156 times)

Offline brewsumore

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Is German magnum a noble hop?
« on: February 11, 2015, 03:17:13 AM »
It appears that it is a variant of hallertau gold or tradition (per beersmith link below) and so I deduce (and the article states) it is a noble hop, but I wanted to get confirmation, since at least what I ordered is a high-alpha hop, advertised as 12 - 14%AA (http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/Magnum2oz_p/hopsgrmagnum3.htm )

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/02/05/noble-hops-for-european-beer-styles/

I'm brewing my first German Pils this Sunday, and want to know "for the record" if I'm using all noble hops, including the magnum as a bittering hop.

The other two hops in the recipe definitely are noble hops:  hallertau mittelfruh and spalt.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 03:23:02 AM by brewsumore »

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 03:36:50 AM »
I do not think it matters. Just call it all Nobel if you like.

Are you using German or US Magnum?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 03:41:30 AM »
If you are going by strict terms, no it is not.

Noble hops are Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnanger Tattnang, Spalter Spalt, and Czech Saaz. There are others sometimes thrown in, like Herrsbrucker, but the 4 above are not debated.

Magnum is great for bittering, along with German Perle and Northern brewer. Hallerau Tradition works in a pinch.

Use the Magnum for bittering and the others for flavor and aroma, the beer will be good.
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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 04:55:50 AM »
Thanks Jeff, and Thirsty Monk.  I had found a fascinating and thought-provoking thread with M. Brungard and AJ DeLange, both of whose advice I highly regard, debating over the importance of brewing German pilsner with all noble hops.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-ag-german-pilsner-need-help-guidance-water-profile-485138/

I remain confident that my beer will turn out well, if brew day goes well, I just wanted to know!  It is obviously somewhat academic, in light of the fact that I am brewing a variation on the recipe printed in AHA as Steve Mifsud's 2013 NHC Pilsner Category gold medal winner, "German Pils". 

Due to my faith in ProMash's accuracy at gauging predicted IBUs, I felt that the recipe (link below), has some intentional or unintentional typos, thus I tweaked it to hit the recipe total IBUs target, and am using phosphoric acid instead of acidulated malt, and am using 34/70 instead of Munich Lager yeast, and Jeff, per your previous recommendations, am going all RO water to build Kai's GP water profile.  So I hope you will wish me luck!

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/GermanPils

And yes, I am using German magnum hops - all German hops, from Yakima Valley Hops imported varieties, 2013 crop.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 05:26:06 AM by brewsumore »

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 06:03:34 AM »
Noble hops are Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnanger Tattnang, Spalter Spalt, and Czech Saaz. There are others sometimes thrown in, like Herrsbrucker, but the 4 above are not debated.

You missed Hersbruck Hersbrucker.

Galena is the mother plant for Magnum.  I like Galena more than I like Magnum.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 01:18:10 PM »
Thanks Jeff, and Thirsty Monk.  I had found a fascinating and thought-provoking thread with M. Brungard and AJ DeLange, both of whose advice I highly regard, debating over the importance of brewing German pilsner with all noble hops.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-ag-german-pilsner-need-help-guidance-water-profile-485138/

I remain confident that my beer will turn out well, if brew day goes well, I just wanted to know!  It is obviously somewhat academic, in light of the fact that I am brewing a variation on the recipe printed in AHA as Steve Mifsud's 2013 NHC Pilsner Category gold medal winner, "German Pils". 

Due to my faith in ProMash's accuracy at gauging predicted IBUs, I felt that the recipe (link below), has some intentional or unintentional typos, thus I tweaked it to hit the recipe total IBUs target, and am using phosphoric acid instead of acidulated malt, and am using 34/70 instead of Munich Lager yeast, and Jeff, per your previous recommendations, am going all RO water to build Kai's GP water profile.  So I hope you will wish me luck!

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/GermanPils

And yes, I am using German magnum hops - all German hops, from Yakima Valley Hops imported varieties, 2013 crop.

Yeah, but if you talk to a couple German brewmasters they are most likely to tell you that using the nobel hops for bittering is a waste of hops (and wort!).

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 01:41:34 PM »
Noble hops are Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnanger Tattnang, Spalter Spalt, and Czech Saaz. There are others sometimes thrown in, like Herrsbrucker, but the 4 above are not debated.

You missed Hersbruck Hersbrucker.

Galena is the mother plant for Magnum.  I like Galena more than I like Magnum.

No, I maybe spelled it wrong, but it was mentioned as a sometimes included. The first 4 are the classics, Hersbrucker, is sometimes called a noble hop, as are Fuggles, Goldings, and Styrian Goldings.
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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 05:07:11 PM »
Thanks Jeff, and Thirsty Monk.  I had found a fascinating and thought-provoking thread with M. Brungard and AJ DeLange, both of whose advice I highly regard, debating over the importance of brewing German pilsner with all noble hops.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-ag-german-pilsner-need-help-guidance-water-profile-485138/

I remain confident that my beer will turn out well, if brew day goes well, I just wanted to know!  It is obviously somewhat academic, in light of the fact that I am brewing a variation on the recipe printed in AHA as Steve Mifsud's 2013 NHC Pilsner Category gold medal winner, "German Pils". 

Due to my faith in ProMash's accuracy at gauging predicted IBUs, I felt that the recipe (link below), has some intentional or unintentional typos, thus I tweaked it to hit the recipe total IBUs target, and am using phosphoric acid instead of acidulated malt, and am using 34/70 instead of Munich Lager yeast, and Jeff, per your previous recommendations, am going all RO water to build Kai's GP water profile.  So I hope you will wish me luck!

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/GermanPils

And yes, I am using German magnum hops - all German hops, from Yakima Valley Hops imported varieties, 2013 crop.

Yeah, but if you talk to a couple German brewmasters they are most likely to tell you that using the nobel hops for bittering is a waste of hops (and wort!).

Yeah, and at the homebrew level we don't need to split hairs - good is good.  My point about not saying "oh no!" to using magnum if a non-noble.  Duh, the recipe won NHC Gold!

Still, I'm one of those people who, although very little experience tasting quality German lagers, would go with additional noble pellet hops for bittering to try to copy the best German pilsner, if that's what it takes.  Ultimately, with my palate and skill, I'm not concerned in the least.

However, I am going to research more about the impact of hops selection for GP based on total oil percentages, and individual hop compounds of the hops, since noble hops are considerably different from other hops in those regards, and since that DOES logically play into making the most authentic, quality versions of the style via hops selection.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 05:11:37 PM by brewsumore »

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 05:25:32 PM »
RE:  "...since that DOES logically play into making the most authentic, quality versions of the style via hops selection."

I reflect that the use of the word "authentic" is somewhat subjective, since as part of the discussion we've already discovered that plenty of German commercial brewers, and US commercial brewers creating this style, do use non-noble hops for bittering, since it is an obvious choice for production and economic reasons via a cost-benefit comparison, and/or possibly for the polyphenols reason or other chemistry-based reasons. 

Therefore, I guess I meant to say: "...since that DOES logically play into making the most authentic old-world, quality versions of the style via hops selection." 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 05:27:42 PM by brewsumore »

Offline chumley

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 12:29:01 AM »
After I read that PU had switched to using Clusters for bittering, I became far less picky on my choice of bittering hops.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 02:52:59 AM »
After I read that PU had switched to using Clusters for bittering, I became far less picky on my choice of bittering hops.

When did that happen?
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Offline chumley

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 04:50:00 AM »

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 12:15:13 PM »
I found this an interesting read:

The term "noble hops" traditionally refers to varieties of hops which are low in bitterness and high in aroma. They are the European cultivars or races Hallertau, Tettnanger, Spalt, and Saaz. They are not bred as "modern" hop varieties but they are wild hops found and named for a specific region or city in which they were first found or by the farmer which found them or first propagated them. They contain high amounts of the hop oil humulene and low amounts of alpha acids cohumulone and adhumulone, as well as lower amounts of the harsher-tasting beta acids lupulone, colupulone, and adlupulone.
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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 03:15:34 PM »
Another attribute that I believe all nobles have is an alpha-to-beta ratio that approaches 1:1.

Here's a link to an interesting publication that shows that Spalter and Tettnager are almost genetically identical to Saazer.  It also shows that U.S. Hallertauer is even closer to Fuggle than is U.S. Tettnager.  Furthermore, there are  Tettnanger and Saazer clonal selections that are not members of the Saazer group even though they share morphological similarities to these cultivars.

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/400/art%253A10.1023%252FB%253AGRES.0000027052.72343.2d.pdf?auth66=1423754007_7d87b9424a05bebf86e5497aa0450e4d&ext=.pdf

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Is German magnum a noble hop?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2015, 06:32:37 PM »
Noble hops are Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnanger Tattnang, Spalter Spalt, and Czech Saaz. There are others sometimes thrown in, like Herrsbrucker, but the 4 above are not debated.

You missed Hersbruck Hersbrucker.

Galena is the mother plant for Magnum.  I like Galena more than I like Magnum.

No, I maybe spelled it wrong, but it was mentioned as a sometimes included. The first 4 are the classics, Hersbrucker, is sometimes called a noble hop, as are Fuggles, Goldings, and Styrian Goldings.

Jeff (or anyone),  for the GP recipe that I provided a link above, it calls for Spalter Spalt for a 30 min and a 5 min addition.  I have some Spalt Select on hand, but also have access to buy Spalter Spalt.  If you were in my position, which would you use? 

I brewed one batch and liked it so well I'm going to brew another, so I'm thinking to be safe I'll buy addiitonal Spalter Spalt as used before, but don't want to ovethink it.  The Spalt Select are fresh, sealed YVH hops.

Just degrees of gray where true noble hops are involved. 

My understanding is that the Spalt Select have a taste a little more like hallertau mittelfruh, the other parent for the disease resistant cultivar.

Edit:  I'e answered my own question:  Since the other hops in the recipe are hallertau mittelfruh, I'll buy more splater spalt hops to get a better range of hop flavor.  It's just a few more dollars!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:51:13 PM by brewsumore »