[Frankenbrew]

I recently entered an Irish Red Ale into a competition, and it got dinged for diacetyl.

I used all English malts, hops, and yeast as is called for in the BJCP guidelines. My goal was to create a caramelly beer with hints of toast and toffee. I think I accomplished my goal.

However, when I got the scores back I was surprised to see the notes on diacetyl. Now, I can't taste any diacetyl at all, and the beer doesn't have the hallmark slick mouth feel.

So I went back and had another smell/taste. I can't taste any diacetyl; as a matter of fact, it tastes very clean. However, in the aroma I detect the English crystal, and it does smell sort of like butterscotch. It is actually pleasant--to me, anyway-- and it seems like it's more of a combination of caramel and toffee which is what Irish Reds are supposed to have.

Has anyone else ever experienced this flavor/taste from English crystal or had someone else mistake it for diacetyl?

It could be diacetyl, of course, but I really don't think so.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I recently entered an Irish Red Ale into a competition, and it got dinged for diacetyl.

I used all English malts, hops, and yeast as is called for in the BJCP guidelines. My goal was to create a caramelly beer with hints of toast and toffee. I think I accomplished my goal.

However, when I got the scores back I was surprised to see the notes on diacetyl. Now, I can't taste any diacetyl at all, and the beer doesn't have the hallmark slick mouth feel.

So I went back and had another smell/taste. I can't taste any diacetyl; as a matter of fact, it tastes very clean. However, in the aroma I detect the English crystal, and it does smell sort of like butterscotch. It is actually pleasant--to me, anyway-- and it seems like it's more of a combination of caramel and toffee which is what Irish Reds are supposed to have.

Has anyone else ever experienced this flavor/taste from English crystal or had someone else mistake it for diacetyl?

It could be diacetyl, of course, but I really don't think so.

english ale yeast can produce noticeable diacetyl. problem is everyones threshold for detection is different.

[Rhoobarb]

I have a couple of buddies that got dinged for the same reason and their experience was the same as yours.  I tried their beers and found them to be very tasty and to style.  IMO, I think there are many judges who mistake the carmel notes for diacetyl.  The guidelines state that the aroma "may have a light buttery character" and "occasionally with a buttered toast " flavor. 

[denny]

Irish ale, huh?  Did you by any chance use WY1084?

[HoosierBrew]

Irish ale, huh?  Did you by any chance use WY1084?

+1.  1084 is a big diacetyl producer.

[Frankenbrew]

Irish ale, huh?  Did you by any chance use WY1084?

I didn't. I used Safale 04.

I know that 1084 is a notorious producer of diacetyl, and I like it in my Irish Red, but I brewed it at the last moment and didn't have any on hand, so I went with the 04.

[Frankenbrew]

I have a couple of buddies that got dinged for the same reason and their experience was the same as yours.  I tried their beers and found them to be very tasty and to style.  IMO, I think there are many judges who mistake the carmel notes for diacetyl.  The guidelines state that the aroma "may have a light buttery character" and "occasionally with a buttered toast " flavor.

Thanks!

Yes I noticed that language in the guidelines, too. I can see how they might mistake that for the dreaded D. After all, judges are trained to look for imperfections, and could perhaps be a little hyper vigilant. I can detect diacetyl, and I don't like it, but I'm 99% sure that it is not diacetyl.

Whenever I have and beers from Shipyard, I know that is diacetyl.

[dmtaylor]

Some judges are idiots.  The style guidelines allow diacetyl in this style.  Enter a different competition and you'll get different results.  I guarantee it.

[Iliff Ave]

s04 is usually very clean for me however there was one instance where I was like 'so that is what diacetyl is' as it was very noticeable. From what I recall, I transferred off the yeast too soon. I trust this what not your experience. It's a bummer to get dinged for something like that especially if it isn't accurate...

[Frankenbrew]

s04 is usually very clean for me however there was one instance where I was like 'so that is what diacetyl is' as it was very noticeable. From what I recall, I transferred off the yeast too soon. I trust this what not your experience. It's a bummer to get dinged for something like that especially if it isn't accurate...

I did rush it a bit. It was in primary for three weeks and conditioning in the keg on CO2 for another week.

[dmtaylor]

If there is any diacetyl, it is likely to age out over time, maybe another couple of weeks.

[Iliff Ave]

s04 is usually very clean for me however there was one instance where I was like 'so that is what diacetyl is' as it was very noticeable. From what I recall, I transferred off the yeast too soon. I trust this what not your experience. It's a bummer to get dinged for something like that especially if it isn't accurate...

I did rush it a bit. It was in primary for three weeks and conditioning in the keg on CO2 for another week.

Mine was under 2 weeks. It was one of those 'what the hell what I thinking' moments created by impatience.

[Frankenbrew]

If there is any diacetyl, it is likely to age out over time, maybe another couple of weeks.

Thanks. I didn't know that diacetyl would age out.

[dmtaylor]

Sure.  Warm temperatures help.  Keep it above 55 or even 60 F to speed things along.

[HoosierBrew]

Sure.  Warm temperatures help.  Keep it above 55 or even 60 F to speed things along.

+1