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Author Topic: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?  (Read 6754 times)

Offline denny

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 11:59:54 am »
Sure.  Warm temperatures help.  Keep it above 55 or even 60 F to speed things along.

I know this is true if yeast it present, because the elevated temp activates the yeast to consume the diacetyl.  But are you saying that simply raising the temp will do the same thing?
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Offline blatz

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 12:13:08 pm »
Sure.  Warm temperatures help.  Keep it above 55 or even 60 F to speed things along.

I know this is true if yeast it present, because the elevated temp activates the yeast to consume the diacetyl.  But are you saying that simply raising the temp will do the same thing?

I tried something similar with acetyaldehyde in a pils I made years back - dave mentioned to me the boiling point of acetyaldehyde was 60-something IIRC, and advised me to pull the kegs out and degas them over a week or so.  it certainly seemed to help a lot - there was a faint hint of green apple after, but that could have also been me knowing it was there at one point, since most tasters didn't notice it.

my guess is that there is still enough yeast in the unfiltered beer to 'clean up' the job if warm and thus not dormant.  but that is purely speculation. 
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 12:14:36 pm »
For me, I was thinking more of there being yeast present, like warming up bottles to room temp for a week or so.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2015, 12:43:33 pm »
For me, I was thinking more of there being yeast present, like warming up bottles to room temp for a week or so.

I've cleaned up diacetyl with krausening, but I wonder if there's enough yeast present to do it without adding more yeast.
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Offline YooperBrew

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2015, 02:02:52 pm »
For me, I was thinking more of there being yeast present, like warming up bottles to room temp for a week or so.

I've cleaned up diacetyl with krausening, but I wonder if there's enough yeast present to do it without adding more yeast.

In my experience, diacetyl will not age out without krausening, and even then it seems to want to stick around. 

Offline denny

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2015, 02:06:13 pm »
In my experience, diacetyl will not age out without krausening, and even then it seems to want to stick around.

Thanks, Yooper!  That's what I was getting at....
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2015, 03:25:15 pm »
It's the yeast eating the diacetyl.  If you filtered or fined the beer with gelatin, the effectiveness of higher temperature will be reduced or eliminated.

If you did not filter or fine with gel, then yes, there is enough yeast to get the job done.  Typically takes 3-4 weeks, maybe sometimes a little longer.

If there's a buttload of diacetyl, they won't be able to eat it all.  This only works if the effect is "mild to moderate".
Dave

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Offline Jimmy K

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 12:15:46 pm »
I think this is a week spot in judge/beer geek education. There just aren't many examples of English malts/yeast/hops being imported or replicated (as commercial beers, I mean). There are some flavors there that are not represented in American craft beer, German, or Belgian beer which seem to dominate current popularity.
 
That and sometimes you just wind up with two judges who don't know enough about the style they've been assigned. Sure you can read guidelines, but you can't taste the words.
 
Well you can try to taste words, but they're all oxidized.
 
 
You know - papery. Get it?
 
 
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Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 05:57:06 pm »
I think this is a week spot in judge/beer geek education. There just aren't many examples of English malts/yeast/hops being imported or replicated (as commercial beers, I mean). There are some flavors there that are not represented in American craft beer, German, or Belgian beer which seem to dominate current popularity.
 
That and sometimes you just wind up with two judges who don't know enough about the style they've been assigned. Sure you can read guidelines, but you can't taste the words.
 
Well you can try to taste words, but they're all oxidized.
 
 
You know - papery. Get it?
 
 
You can stop rolling your eyes now.

No, I know what you are saying.

Words are not perfect, and especially so when it comes to things with a high level of subjectivity, like gustatory or olfactory sensation, that is: taste and smell. For example, you might  smell my Irish red and think the malt smells and tastes like buttered toast or toffee, which is within the guidelines, and the next judge thinks it smells like butterscotch which might be good or bad depending on the judge. You think, Yummy I love me a carmelly Irish red, and the next guy thinks, wow! this is a diacetyl bomb. And I think this is what exactly what happened with this one.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 01:23:38 pm »
Some judges are idiots.  The style guidelines allow diacetyl in this style.  Enter a different competition and you'll get different results.  I guarantee it.
I wonder how well Anchor Steam does when blind entered as Cal Common. The GLs call for No Diacetyle, but AS has a carmely note on the nose that's dang close to D.

Would that mistake land a judge in Idiot land?

Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 04:58:20 pm »
Some judges are idiots.  The style guidelines allow diacetyl in this style.  Enter a different competition and you'll get different results.  I guarantee it.
I wonder how well Anchor Steam does when blind entered as Cal Common. The GLs call for No Diacetyle, but AS has a carmely note on the nose that's dang close to D.

Would that mistake land a judge in Idiot land?

Yes, I can see the mistake. But, a judge should know the difference. I wouldn't call anyone an idiot--and I'm sure that Dave was being dramatic--but if you don't know the difference between caramel and diacetyl, then maybe some professional development is in order. Plus, aren't flights usually assigned to a pair of judges?
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 05:14:26 pm »
Yes but each write their own score sheet. Did you get two that said diacetyle?

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2015, 05:59:08 pm »
a judge should know the difference.

Yes.

aren't flights usually assigned to a pair of judges?

Often times, if the higher ranking judge detects something, even falsely, the lower ranking judge/unranked volunteer cannot resist the urge to copy the higher judge.

Ladies and gents, when you judge, please do NOT do this!!!  Only write stuff if you know for certain what you are tasting!  If you aren't sure if there's diacetyl or whatever else, please, at the very least, follow it with a question mark, e.g., "I taste toffee... could this be diacetyl?"  In my view, there's no shame in admitting uncertainty if you're not certain.  We're all learning.  Even the Grand Masters can learn from Recognized rank judges (though they might never admit it!).
Dave

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Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 06:31:25 pm »
a judge should know the difference.

Yes.

aren't flights usually assigned to a pair of judges?

Often times, if the higher ranking judge detects something, even falsely, the lower ranking judge/unranked volunteer cannot resist the urge to copy the higher judge.

Ladies and gents, when you judge, please do NOT do this!!!  Only write stuff if you know for certain what you are tasting!  If you aren't sure if there's diacetyl or whatever else, please, at the very least, follow it with a question mark, e.g., "I taste toffee... could this be diacetyl?"  In my view, there's no shame in admitting uncertainty if you're not certain.  We're all learning.  Even the Grand Masters can learn from Recognized rank judges (though they might never admit it!).

Yes, I think this is what happened. Only one judge mentioned it, though the scores were aligned, so I thought that maybe the one judge influenced the other. Both of the scores were in the same ballpark. The scores weren't that bad (24 overall), but I know that the beer was spot on. My feeling is, okay, maybe it wasn't the best of the flight. I can live with that. But I feel that the so-so score was lower than it would have been if the dreaded D hadn't been brought up.

With that said, I'm over it. I like the beer, and that's really all that matters. I won't change the recipe if I brew it again, and I probably will. I was just miffed when I received the scores. I'll enjoy the beer, though I'll shake my head and wonder: WTF?
Frank C.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: English Crystal Malts Mistaken for Diacetyl?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2015, 07:10:08 am »
I think there are a few possibilities really. Either the judges got it right and your beer has diacetyle,  or they got it right but your beer got switched by a steward, or they got it wrong.