Author Topic: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures  (Read 3522 times)

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1703
  • Southern Maryland
    • View Profile
Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« on: February 14, 2015, 02:17:36 PM »
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 03:00:48 PM »
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?

Yeah, Wyeast recommends fermenting @ 90F to avoid the famous 3724 stall.  I've fermented it at 90F and liked the results - it got to 1.006 after about 8 days, 1.002 FG at 12 days IIRC.  I wouldn't have dreamed of doing this with any other yeast, as you'd normally get a phenolic, fusel bomb. But it made a good beer - saison yeasts are a different animal.  My other method (that I still use) is to pitch 3724 at 65F and, when it starts to stall (and it will at that temp) , pitch with 3711 and ramp up after 48 hours. Gives you some of the complexity of 3724 with the attenuative nature of 3711.
Jon H.

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1576
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 03:24:40 PM »
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?

Yeah, Wyeast recommends fermenting @ 90F to avoid the famous 3724 stall.  I've fermented it at 90F and liked the results - it got to 1.006 after about 8 days, 1.002 FG at 12 days IIRC.  I wouldn't have dreamed of doing this with any other yeast, as you'd normally get a phenolic, fusel bomb. But it made a good beer - saison yeasts are a different animal.  My other method (that I still use) is to pitch 3724 at 65F and, when it starts to stall (and it will at that temp) , pitch with 3711 and ramp up after 48 hours. Gives you some of the complexity of 3724 with the attenuative nature of 3711.
+1
I pitch this yeast at 80 and hold at 90, makes a great beer and finishes around 1.002-.005 easily in 10 days! Its definitely a finicky strain
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1703
  • Southern Maryland
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 06:08:55 PM »
How long of a secondary should I consider? Is this a drink it fresh strain or a let it sit and age strain?
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 06:37:37 PM »
I don't secondary Saison (or most styles).  I keg it when it's ready. Especially the stronger saisons can benefit from a little time , of course.
Jon H.

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1850
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 10:39:16 PM »
Drink fresh, pitch a LOT of yeast, and pitch high with 3724. Love this yeast.

PS: if you your want the email from Wyeast themselves about the high initial temp, I can post it when I get some time to dig it out of my gmail.
Amanda Burkemper
KC Bier Meisters Education Director
BJCP Assistant Education Director
BJCP Master/Mead

Redbird Brewhouse - There's Always a Project
Our Homebrewed Wedding, AHA Article

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1703
  • Southern Maryland
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 06:27:42 PM »
If you don't mind, more information would be helpful. If you can't dig up the email don't worry about it though.

Thanks for all the help folks. Just wanted some reassurance that 90 degrees was a good idea. :)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1850
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2015, 06:48:45 PM »
It is post #9 in this thread: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.0, where we all discussed this back in 2013.

Here is the post again, copy-pasted:

As a note for everyone, I emailed Wyeast and boy did they get back to me promptly!

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

That settles it. I'm doing a 3724/Nelson Sauvin rebrew but pitching at 90*. I hope this goes well!

FWIW, I never did do a 3724 at 90F personally, but other people have with success, as noted in the linked thread. My WLP565 fresh slurry source dried up (he's turning pro, and is in the weird 'shouldn't brew as a homebrewer but can't brew as a brewer' limbo) so I'll grab a couple of packets of 3724 for our next 10g batch and pitch it at 90F. That brew day is scheduled for sometime in March.
Amanda Burkemper
KC Bier Meisters Education Director
BJCP Assistant Education Director
BJCP Master/Mead

Redbird Brewhouse - There's Always a Project
Our Homebrewed Wedding, AHA Article

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1850
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2015, 07:01:58 PM »
I should note though, after reading your first post, I would not want to ferment this yeast in swinging temperatures. 3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.
Amanda Burkemper
KC Bier Meisters Education Director
BJCP Assistant Education Director
BJCP Master/Mead

Redbird Brewhouse - There's Always a Project
Our Homebrewed Wedding, AHA Article

Offline kylekohlmorgen

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1363
  • Saint Louis, MO
    • View Profile
    • The South House Pilot Brewery
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2015, 10:34:35 PM »
I should note though, after reading your first post, I would not want to ferment this yeast in swinging temperatures. 3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.

YES

3724 can complete fermentation in the high 70s / low 80s, but it needs to be a steady rise and stay consistent. You have to be able to hold the temperature steady between set point changes and especially at the high end, during the last few points of attenuation and clean up.

By steady, I mean constant within 2 degrees F or so.

I don't ferment in the 90s because I can't hold the temperature steady when its that high. The fermentation may take longer than normal ale fermentations, but I like to think of it as slow-moving rather than stalled.
Twitter/Instagram: @southhousebrew

Recipes, Brett/Bacteria Experiments: http://SouthHouseBeer.com/

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1703
  • Southern Maryland
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2015, 11:40:52 PM »
Yeah, about halfway through the thread I realized that fermenting without outdoor ambient temps wouldn't be ideal.

Still may try it though, just on a smaller scale. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The idea of brewing a farmhouse ale and fermenting it in that manner is attractive, whatever the outcome.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4378
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2015, 02:05:32 AM »
3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.

Fickle is an understatement.  I've given up on this yeast but if you have the patience and you're willing to bend to it's will it will make a great beer.  You must do what it wants, it will not do what you want.  Temp swings are not good.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1703
  • Southern Maryland
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 12:59:39 AM »
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1576
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2015, 01:29:35 PM »
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Essentially, once the beer has reached the confirmed FG there is no need to keep the temp high since its done.

After it ferments out simply let it condition at ambient or cold crash it and package it.
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2015, 01:46:06 PM »
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Essentially, once the beer has reached the confirmed FG there is no need to keep the temp high since its done.

After it ferments out simply let it condition at ambient or cold crash it and package it.

Yep
Jon H.