[hopfenundmalz]

This is mostly anecdotal (though not just my anecdotes), but it seems that with modern base malts being so "hot", mash temperature has little impact on fermentability. On top of which it takes a very large change in attenuation to have flavor impacts. I've tasted beers side by side with FG variations of 1.5°P that were indistinguishable. Fermentability really only changes the concentrations of starch and ethanol, and neither provides much of the flavor of beer.

As a practical matter, I only do single-infusion mashes at two temperatures: 67°C and 72°C (about 153°F and 162°F). For the most part, anything under ~12°P gets the higher temp; in almost anything else I'm looking for maximum attenuation.

I did accidentally mash a small beer at 78°C recently and still got ~72% apparent attenuation. At 72°C I was hoping for ~78%. The base malt in that was Weyermann Pilsner.

In the Malt book Mallett says that the modern NA 2 row is almost uncontrollable. it goes to completion very quickly.

Pils malt at 78C! 

[dmtaylor]

The only time I worry is when I accidentally strike the mash too hot in the 160s.  If you go way too hot in the 170s then you need to take care of this right away or you'll kill the alpha as well as the beta.  Either way, fortunately it takes a while to kill all your enzymes, so if you add 2 cups cold water and stir into the mash within a few minutes of the strike, you're fine.  If I want to mash at about 150 F but hit 157-158 F, I don't worry too much.  Sometimes I add cold water, but sometimes I'll just stir a lot and leave the lid off the mash tun for a while and let the temp fall over the course of the mash to get those beta enzymes working again.  They don't all get denatured too quickly as far as I can tell.

[flbrewer]

The only time I worry is when I accidentally strike the mash too hot in the 160s.  If you go way too hot in the 170s then you need to take care of this right away or you'll kill the alpha as well as the beta. 

Just to confirm...you are referring to the temp. you see once you stir up the mash after strike water is added? Thinking back to my last brew I definitely had the mash way too high and stirred for 10 minutes or so to bring it down before finally adding ice. Based on your comments, I'll certainly act faster next time.

[dmtaylor]

It takes a good 5 to 10 minutes for temperatures to even out in the mash tun after the strike.  That's what I'm talking about.  If you see mostly hot spots in those first couple of minutes, then worry a little bit.  If you see a lot of hot spots after about 5 minutes, then worry more.  After 10 minutes, worry a lot.

Also I don't like ice.  It takes time for ice to melt.  I prefer to just add cold water, if available.  Faster reaction time I believe.  It doesn't take much.  Never much more than 2 cups, maybe a quart at most to bring temperature down by like 10 degrees or more.

[flbrewer]

It takes a good 5 to 10 minutes for temperatures to even out in the mash tun after the strike.  That's what I'm talking about.  If you see mostly hot spots in those first couple of minutes, then worry a little bit.  If you see a lot of hot spots after about 5 minutes, then worry more.  After 10 minutes, worry a lot.

Side question, how are you checking hot spots? I use a Thermapen exclusively and have checked by stirring up the mash quite well and checking in roughly the same spot. Obviously with that device it doesn't have a long probe.

[dmtaylor]

I have my good old big fat alcohol thermometer that came with my starters kit in 1999.  Stick into the mash in one spot, leave it there for 20 seconds, take the reading, move to another spot, wait 20 seconds, etc.  I'm kind of a dork but hey, it works.

[flbrewer]

20 seconds??? What year is this?

[dmtaylor]

I am the cheapest homebrewer on the planet Earth.  I still have the same thermometer and hydrometer from 1999 that I use on every batch.  I still have my original fermentation bucket, although now it is used for milling the grain or other non-fermentation uses.  I do not own a chiller or a pump or fermentation fridge or kegging equipment or anything else costing more than a grain mill.  I did not buy my grain mill, I received it as a gift.  My kettle is the original as well, only 4 gallons.  The list goes on.

 

[rabeb25]

I can't dig it up, but I did post it to Denny's wall awhile ago. I did some tests regarding mash temps and final gravities/taste perception based off of Denny's findings that  varying mash temp yielded the same results. For me, that did not work out to be true.

[erockrph]

I will qualify this by saying that I rarely use NA Pale 2-row as my base malt. I am most commonly using either Maris Otter, or some combination of Pils/Munich/Vienna. So even with less "hot" base malts, enzymatically speaking, I still end up mashing at 162 or 147 (sometimes as low as 145) if I want to see a noticeable difference in fermentability compared to my typical beers.

I target a mash temp of 153F for everything but session beers (162F), or beers I want to finish super dry (147). If I end up hitting within a 2-3 degree window of that, then I don't mess with it.

Personally, I do use ice if I need to drop the mash temp quickly if I overshoot by a lot. I just stir hard until it's all dissolved, which is a matter of seconds. This way there's less dilution.

[flbrewer]

Maybe this should be moved to another thread, but something I considered to be VERY important to all grain brewing seems rather insignificant to the final product now. So if you line up 10 brewers that have the same exact ingredients, same equipment, etc. etc. who is going to make the best beer and why?

Does it really go back to fermentation, sanitation, etc. the tenants of brewing?

[erockrph]

Maybe this should be moved to another thread, but something I considered to be VERY important to all grain brewing seems rather insignificant to the final product now. So if you line up 10 brewers that have the same exact ingredients, same equipment, etc. etc. who is going to make the best beer and why?

Does it really go back to fermentation, sanitation, etc. the tenants of brewing?

Mastering the basics will have you making B-B+ level beer regularly, with the occasional A. From there, the incremental stuff does come in to play to get you to the steady A-A+ range. The biggest thing there is being able to brew the same recipe repeatably, and being able to dial it in to get the results you want.

So, in general, the fine details like mash temps aren't going to make or break a beer. But for a specific recipe it may turn out to be the right tool for the job when you're trying to take it from a B to an A.

[denny]

I can't dig it up, but I did post it to Denny's wall awhile ago. I did some tests regarding mash temps and final gravities/taste perception based off of Denny's findings that  varying mash temp yielded the same results. For me, that did not work out to be true.

As I said, at this point I have only a single data point, so it's more of a curiosity than a rule.  In his book "Homebrewing: Beyond the Basics", Mike Karnowski posts some interesting info about his experiments with mash temp and FG.

[rabeb25]

I can't dig it up, but I did post it to Denny's wall awhile ago. I did some tests regarding mash temps and final gravities/taste perception based off of Denny's findings that  varying mash temp yielded the same results. For me, that did not work out to be true.

As I said, at this point I have only a single data point, so it's more of a curiosity than a rule.  In his book "Homebrewing: Beyond the Basics", Mike Karnowski posts some interesting info about his experiments with mash temp and FG.

Yup no worries, Denny!