Author Topic: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures  (Read 3598 times)

Offline Stevie

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 02:40:35 PM »
You could try making a Burton Union type device.

http://byo.com/hops/item/351-build-a-burton-union-system-projects

Offline macbrews

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 05:15:53 PM »
You could try making a Burton Union type device.

http://byo.com/hops/item/351-build-a-burton-union-system-projects

That is an interesting set up that looks easy to make.  My original thought was to not have the spillage return to the fermenter, but having the original wort in the container rather than something else makes a lot of sense.

Thanks,

Mac

Offline chris.davinroy

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 06:43:22 PM »
So, what is the ideal pH of water to store yeast. I am just getting into harvesting for a YEAST that I will be using 4~5 times per year. I've watched video upon video about harvesting and no one mentions this. I just quickly browsed the section on this i the book entitled "Yeast" (one of the 4 part series entitled Yeast, Water, Malt, Hops) and they didn't mention it in that 'section'. Again, I didn't go into great depth in the book, so I am sure that it is referenced in there somewhere.

Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 07:12:40 PM »
So, what is the ideal pH of water to store yeast. I am just getting into harvesting for a YEAST that I will be using 4~5 times per year. I've watched video upon video about harvesting and no one mentions this. I just quickly browsed the section on this i the book entitled "Yeast" (one of the 4 part series entitled Yeast, Water, Malt, Hops) and they didn't mention it in that 'section'. Again, I didn't go into great depth in the book, so I am sure that it is referenced in there somewhere.

The real answer is that it doesn't matter becasue you shouldn't store yeast under water.
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Offline chris.davinroy

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 07:36:42 PM »
Denny, in the book I mentioned, the tell you under water is safer than under beer. Again, I have no experience in this and I am looking for guidance.

Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 07:40:58 PM »
Denny, in the book I mentioned, the tell you under water is safer than under beer. Again, I have no experience in this and I am looking for guidance.

All I can tell you is that I and a lot of other people disagree with that advice.  I'm basing my opinion on my experience of trying it both ways.  There is a very experienced yeast guy on the forum who goes by S. Cerviseae.  Although we disagree on some things, I'm firmly in his camp when he says storing it under beer is better.  But I encourage you to try both and decide for yourself.
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Offline chris.davinroy

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 07:43:09 PM »
Cool, Thanks for the tip. Always learning.

Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2015, 07:44:41 PM »
Cool, Thanks for the tip. Always learning.

This is one of those hobbies where you never stop learning.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2015, 05:20:25 PM »
Denny, in the book I mentioned, the tell you under water is safer than under beer. Again, I have no experience in this and I am looking for guidance.

The practice outlined on page 168 of Yeast goes against what is practiced by the professional brewing community and most of the long-time veterans in the amateur brewing community.  In fact, the practice contradicts what Chris White wrote for BrewPub magazine, which leads to me to believe that the yeast rinsing section was a Jamil addition. 

http://www.probrewer.com/library/archives/keeping-your-yeast-healthy-longer/

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Yeast is a living organism and is most happy and healthy when feeding on wort sugars. When fermentation is complete, yeast cells flocculate to the bottom of the fermenter. They then go into a resting state. Yeast under beer is fairly stable, and most brewers agree that the best place to store yeast is under beer. But two crucial factors are temperature and time.

The problem with the yeast rinsing section of the book is that many home brewers have misinterpreted what was written.  The authors offered the technique as a method to select yeast cells.  Here's the first paragraph from that section:

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The question many homebrewers have is, "How do I select only the best yeast if harvesting the entire contents of the fermentor?"   The answer lies in yeast rinsing.  While it cannot replace selecting the ideal yeast with a shovel, it can help separate out the trub, dead cells, and alcohol from your pitch.

There are other ways to select the best cells that do not involve the possibility of contaminating one's culture.  I outlined a process that many amateur brewers use to bottom crop relatively trub and dead cell free yeast without exposing the culture to boiled water in the thread linked in my signature.

The authors go onto attempt to justify a risk-laden process in commercial settings.

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Rinsing can also be worthwhile in commercial settings, especially for yeast harvested from a high-gravity beer.

Green beer, while toxic to domesticated yeast, is even more toxic to house microflora.  Green beer also contains non-fully digested sources of carbon.  Sugar belongs to a class of substances known as carbohydrates.  Carbohydrates are compounds made of carbon bound to water (i.e., hydrated carbon).  All the sugars found in wort break down into multiples of CH2O.  The simplest sugars found in wort are known as hexoses because they contain six carbon atoms.  The most common hexose is glucose.  Hexoses have the chemical formula C6H12O6.  Ethanol is also source of carbon. It has the chemical formula C2H6O (or CH3CH2OH).  Under the right conditions, yeast will consume ethanol via a metabolic process known as diauxic shift.

Finally, here's something that Fermentis wrote about storing yeast out of beer:

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/2010_TT_EN_HD.pdf

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In case of repitching, yeast must not be stored out of beer for long periods, even at low temperatures, as yeast
glycogen levels will fall causing slow fermentations.

Fementis' parent company, Lesaffre, is a multi-national yeast and fermentation powerhouse.   Their yeast research spans brewing to yeast lines used in health-related research.  If you perform a Google search using the terms "Lesaffre" and "bioreactor," you will see that Fermentis is just a drop in the Lesaffre yeast bucket.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 12:49:26 AM by S. cerevisiae »

Offline chris.davinroy

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2015, 05:41:32 PM »
S.cerevisiae, thank you for the tips. I will read them carefully and store them in my favorites. This one will probably not survive as I had 1/4 inch of creaminess on the bottom of my secondary. Now I barely have a 1/16 of an inch in my pint jars.

Thank you, again, for hekping this to be a better environment. Beer people rule!

Offline hopshead

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Re: Yeast Wizards - Please critique my Top Cropping Procedures
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2015, 06:22:46 PM »
WLP-022 is also a top cropper.

I just top cropped the Essex Ale for a second time this weekend.  It is EXTREMELY different looking than the Cal Ale I was using.  Very dense and I easily collected 80 grams of yeast.  After collecting the yeast, several hours later, a new krausen formed and could have been cropped again if I wanted. 

Based on S. Cervevisiae posts in this thread, I may be top cropping too soon however.  In this second harvest, I skimmed the braun hefe and discarded around 16 hours after pitching.  The actual harvest was about 24-26 hours after pitching.  It may take me a while working with this yeast to figure out the "right" time.  But so far I have been impressed.

I also agree with storing yeast under fermented beer, not water.  A couple of years ago I was storing under water (still harvesting Cal ale at the time), I lost batches of beer due to spoiled yeast very quickly (4-5 generations). 

I brew every other week, so in my process, I collect some wort from the fermenter (through the valve of the SS Brewtech bucket) to let the top crop ferment (about 2-3 days), then I store in my kegerator for about 7-8 days, then make a quart to 2 quart starter for the yeast to feed on a couple of days before the next brewday.

Before fermenting in the bucket, I was top cropping from a carboy.  Get an orange carboy cap and insert a racking through it so the end sticks into the krausen.  This is basically a forced blowoff.  It works, but it takes longer to collect.

cheers!