### Author Topic: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour  (Read 1415 times)

#### a10t2

• Official Poobah of No Life.
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##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2015, 03:04:36 PM »
Don't you guys lose carbonation over time serving at a lower 8-10 psi? Or do you keep your temps lower to keep that carb level the same? Seems kind a like a balancing act between psi, temp and line length to get the pour you want.

That's exactly what it is. 10 psi and 38°F is the industry pseudo-standard, giving 2.4 vol CO2. If you want higher carbonation you'll need more pressure.

3/16" line drops about 1 psi/ft depending on flow rate, so 8' is right on for 12 psi. http://seanterrill.com/2011/11/11/a-more-accurate-approach-to-draft-system-balancing/

Losing carbonation or the first pour is more foamy than the rest? There's a difference.

This is the critical question. If the first beer is truly carbonated and the second beer is truly not, then something unique is occurring.
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#### wobdee

• Assistant Brewer
• Posts: 235
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2015, 10:41:13 PM »
Don't you guys lose carbonation over time serving at a lower 8-10 psi? Or do you keep your temps lower to keep that carb level the same? Seems kind a like a balancing act between psi, temp and line length to get the pour you want.

That's exactly what it is. 10 psi and 38°F is the industry pseudo-standard, giving 2.4 vol CO2. If you want higher carbonation you'll need more pressure.

3/16" line drops about 1 psi/ft depending on flow rate, so 8' is right on for 12 psi. http://seanterrill.com/2011/11/11/a-more-accurate-approach-to-draft-system-balancing/

Losing carbonation or the first pour is more foamy than the rest? There's a difference.

This is the critical question. If the first beer is truly carbonated and the second beer is truly not, then something unique is occurring.
Its not that the second or third beer isn't carbonated, they just seem to be less carbonated. I jacked up the psi to 14 and it seems better now. I may cut the lines down a bit as well.

#### Frankenbrew

• Brewmaster
• Posts: 680
• South Shore Brew Club, SE Massachusetts
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 12:31:17 AM »
I use 6' of 3/16" lines at 8psi with the kegerator set just above freezing. This seems to maintain good carbonation levels on a multitude of beers. However, if I am having company and will be pouring multiple pints, I'll turn the CO2 up to 10 psi. to get a better pour with the right amount of head. This small adjustment does the trick on my system.

Most of the time with my regular usage of a couple of pints a night, the system works on a "set-it-and-forget-it" basis. But, part of being a bar keep or tapsman is controlling the system for every situation. So, your system sounds pretty normal to me.
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#### JT

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1431
• Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 03:00:46 AM »
Don't you guys lose carbonation over time serving at a lower 8-10 psi? Or do you keep your temps lower to keep that carb level the same? Seems kind a like a balancing act between psi, temp and line length to get the pour you want.
I'm at 40 degrees.  10 psi for most ales.  No adjustment needed.  I also have a low carb mild ale on tap.  This one sits on the shelf in my keezer and has less than two feet of line.  Set at 6 psi.  No adjustment needed for this one either.  It's all about calculating the correct line length taking line inner diameter, regulator psi and height from keg to tap into the formula.

#### duboman

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1576
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2015, 05:49:59 PM »
Don't you guys lose carbonation over time serving at a lower 8-10 psi? Or do you keep your temps lower to keep that carb level the same? Seems kind a like a balancing act between psi, temp and line length to get the pour you want.

That's exactly what it is. 10 psi and 38°F is the industry pseudo-standard, giving 2.4 vol CO2. If you want higher carbonation you'll need more pressure.

3/16" line drops about 1 psi/ft depending on flow rate, so 8' is right on for 12 psi. http://seanterrill.com/2011/11/11/a-more-accurate-approach-to-draft-system-balancing/

Losing carbonation or the first pour is more foamy than the rest? There's a difference.

This is the critical question. If the first beer is truly carbonated and the second beer is truly not, then something unique is occurring.
Its not that the second or third beer isn't carbonated, they just seem to be less carbonated. I jacked up the psi to 14 and it seems better now. I may cut the lines down a bit as well.
It sounds like you have more head on the first pour and less on the subsequent ones, the actual carbonation is the same.

This points to warmer lines than the keg and its a typical issue.

Adding a small fan to circulate the air will alleviate this to some degree.
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

#### HoosierBrew

• Global Moderator
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• Indianapolis,IN
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2015, 06:14:34 PM »
It sounds like you have more head on the first pour and less on the subsequent ones, the actual carbonation is the same.

This points to warmer lines than the keg and its a typical issue.

Adding a small fan to circulate the air will alleviate this to some degree.

+1.  I use one of these in the warm/hot months. The first pour won't be overly foamy and off tasting (like can happen with kegerator towers) using one of these.  Somebody DIY-inclined could build one cheaper. I went with speed and convenience and bought one of these.

http://www.towercooler.com/
Jon H.

#### duboman

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1576
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2015, 06:29:41 PM »
It sounds like you have more head on the first pour and less on the subsequent ones, the actual carbonation is the same.

This points to warmer lines than the keg and its a typical issue.

Adding a small fan to circulate the air will alleviate this to some degree.

+1.  I use one of these in the warm/hot months. The first pour won't be overly foamy and off tasting (like can happen with kegerator towers) using one of these.  Somebody DIY-inclined could build one cheaper. I went with speed and convenience and bought one of these.

http://www.towercooler.com/
That's pretty cool and a good link! I rigged up some small computer fans and they work well, not perfect but Mich better than before having them
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

#### tommymorris

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2125
• Tommy M.
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2015, 10:54:26 PM »
I use 10PSI at 38F and 10' lines with cobra taps. The taps and lines are in the fridge so they stay cold all the time.

What is the optimal foam for you guys? I can pour a pint with about a 1/4" of foam. If I want more I just aim for the middle of the glass.

#### JT

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1431
• Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 11:44:42 PM »
I use 10PSI at 38F and 10' lines with cobra taps. The taps and lines are in the fridge so they stay cold all the time.

What is the optimal foam for you guys? I can pour a pint with about a 1/4" of foam. If I want more I just aim for the middle of the glass.
I like a good 1/2 inch to 3/4 optimally.  I typically get a bit more on the first pour, but she settles down after that.  I also use a fan to help even out keezer temps, otherwise the cold air loves to cling to the bottom.  A typical pour starts off running down the side of a tilted glass and finishes straight down the middle.  Makes me thirsty just thinking about it.

#### duboman

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1576
##### Re: Losing Carbonation And lacing After First Pour
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2015, 12:44:26 AM »
I use 10PSI at 38F and 10' lines with cobra taps. The taps and lines are in the fridge so they stay cold all the time.

What is the optimal foam for you guys? I can pour a pint with about a 1/4" of foam. If I want more I just aim for the middle of the glass.
I like a good 1/2 inch to 3/4 optimally.  I typically get a bit more on the first pour, but she settles down after that.  I also use a fan to help even out keezer temps, otherwise the cold air loves to cling to the bottom.  A typical pour starts off running down the side of a tilted glass and finishes straight down the middle.  Makes me thirsty just thinking about it.
+1
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010